Westcott
Now it was said that the Westcotts' knew these neighbors quite well. But that's really pushing it.
Frank Lloyd Wright's struggles with officialdom
-
Laurie Virr
- Posts: 472
- Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:32 pm
craig j:
Even a cursory glance thru this thread would have indicated that I am of the male gender. Other posters to this topic have referred to me as ‘he’, and in common usage that is not a word used in relation to females. Were you better read you would be aware that in different parts of the world names are given to males whereas elsewhere the same name is allotted to females.
This forum is dedicated to the study of the life and works of a man who fought officialdom every day of his working life. His attitude to public servants is well known, and has been recalled for us earlier in this post by Mr Roderick Grant.
You appear to consider that public servants are entitled to respect per se, irrespective of their abilities, but it is ‘by their deeds shall we know them’, as an old book would have it. The hard facts are that most of those with real ability, and who are worthy of respect, would be unlikely to be attracted to a career assessing the work of others.
If you had taken the trouble to read and reflect on the posts I have made to this topic, instead of apparently being driven by blind prejudice, you may have arrived at different conclusions.
How would you have reacted if a licensed architect had told you that he was not prepared to approve of a design because in his words, ‘It does not look like a house’, but he was at a loss to describe what a house looked like? Do you not think that Frank Lloyd Wright encountered similar, if not greater resistance thru out his career, from the Charnley house, thru Robie, ‘Westhope’. Fallingwater, the Hanna house, and on to the end of his life? Having had my documents rejected for the first time in 43 years recently, and knowing something of the career of FLLW, I reflected that nothing much had changed in the last 50 years, and it was those thoughts that prompted me to post this topic.
Architecture, real Architecture that is, does not consist of the regurgitating of old, worn forms and details, familiar to most of us, and hence recognizable, and capable of approval by public servants. There are as many ways to reinterpret traditional details and forms so that they fulfill their function, as there are people willing so to do.
It is not that my floor plans are not dimensioned, they are. It is just that they are dimensioned in a different way, and that is what officialdom now finds difficult to accept, having previously approved them since 1967. Almost without exception the lower and middle ranking public servants I have encountered, on three continents, yearn for the rule so broad as to permit of no exceptions. If that had been the case in music, we would be bereft of the works of Johann Sebastian Bach, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven, Stephane Grappelli, Django Reinhardt and Miles Davis.
I note you outline your experience and qualifications, presumably in expectation that I will be impressed. Without a shred of regret, I have to disappoint you in this regard. I find it distasteful to make the following declaration, but you offer me little alternative. My career is of 58 years extent, and I have been involved in the design of everything from a suspension bridge to that of a pair of cuff links. I suspect that in comparison you may be a ‘Johnny come lately’.
With a response such as yours, it is perhaps you who should seek the services of a shrink. What sort of intellectual gymnastics are necessary for you to subscribe to a website dedicated to a man who abhorred much of what you apparently stand for? Did he not write that building regulations were totally against the interests of any person wishing to build a building? From your post on this occasion it is patently obvious that you are in no position to pontificate to me on the subject of human relations.
The man who chose to reject my documents last week was not born, when I had accrued 20 years experience. I show deference to proven craftsmen regardless of their age because I admire what they have learned, but the individual I encountered had no humility. Without asking any questions of my reasons for portraying the work as I had, he supposed that if he rejected my submission, I would return to my studio and work on the drawings until they met his satisfaction. He will not make that mistake again. Should I really care what he thinks of my work, or if I have alienated him?
His thoughtless attitude alienated me.
Even a cursory glance thru this thread would have indicated that I am of the male gender. Other posters to this topic have referred to me as ‘he’, and in common usage that is not a word used in relation to females. Were you better read you would be aware that in different parts of the world names are given to males whereas elsewhere the same name is allotted to females.
This forum is dedicated to the study of the life and works of a man who fought officialdom every day of his working life. His attitude to public servants is well known, and has been recalled for us earlier in this post by Mr Roderick Grant.
You appear to consider that public servants are entitled to respect per se, irrespective of their abilities, but it is ‘by their deeds shall we know them’, as an old book would have it. The hard facts are that most of those with real ability, and who are worthy of respect, would be unlikely to be attracted to a career assessing the work of others.
If you had taken the trouble to read and reflect on the posts I have made to this topic, instead of apparently being driven by blind prejudice, you may have arrived at different conclusions.
How would you have reacted if a licensed architect had told you that he was not prepared to approve of a design because in his words, ‘It does not look like a house’, but he was at a loss to describe what a house looked like? Do you not think that Frank Lloyd Wright encountered similar, if not greater resistance thru out his career, from the Charnley house, thru Robie, ‘Westhope’. Fallingwater, the Hanna house, and on to the end of his life? Having had my documents rejected for the first time in 43 years recently, and knowing something of the career of FLLW, I reflected that nothing much had changed in the last 50 years, and it was those thoughts that prompted me to post this topic.
Architecture, real Architecture that is, does not consist of the regurgitating of old, worn forms and details, familiar to most of us, and hence recognizable, and capable of approval by public servants. There are as many ways to reinterpret traditional details and forms so that they fulfill their function, as there are people willing so to do.
It is not that my floor plans are not dimensioned, they are. It is just that they are dimensioned in a different way, and that is what officialdom now finds difficult to accept, having previously approved them since 1967. Almost without exception the lower and middle ranking public servants I have encountered, on three continents, yearn for the rule so broad as to permit of no exceptions. If that had been the case in music, we would be bereft of the works of Johann Sebastian Bach, Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, Ludwig van Beethoven, Stephane Grappelli, Django Reinhardt and Miles Davis.
I note you outline your experience and qualifications, presumably in expectation that I will be impressed. Without a shred of regret, I have to disappoint you in this regard. I find it distasteful to make the following declaration, but you offer me little alternative. My career is of 58 years extent, and I have been involved in the design of everything from a suspension bridge to that of a pair of cuff links. I suspect that in comparison you may be a ‘Johnny come lately’.
With a response such as yours, it is perhaps you who should seek the services of a shrink. What sort of intellectual gymnastics are necessary for you to subscribe to a website dedicated to a man who abhorred much of what you apparently stand for? Did he not write that building regulations were totally against the interests of any person wishing to build a building? From your post on this occasion it is patently obvious that you are in no position to pontificate to me on the subject of human relations.
The man who chose to reject my documents last week was not born, when I had accrued 20 years experience. I show deference to proven craftsmen regardless of their age because I admire what they have learned, but the individual I encountered had no humility. Without asking any questions of my reasons for portraying the work as I had, he supposed that if he rejected my submission, I would return to my studio and work on the drawings until they met his satisfaction. He will not make that mistake again. Should I really care what he thinks of my work, or if I have alienated him?
His thoughtless attitude alienated me.
Clifton Webb in action, playing the part of Mr. Belvedere from "Sitting Pretty":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMemH8fY9Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lMemH8fY9Xg
Last edited by peterm on Tue Jul 13, 2010 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
Palli Davis Holubar
- Posts: 1036
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:14 am
- Location: Wakeman, Ohio
Egads- Thanks for helping me divert my irritation from the sound 24-7 radio entertaining the horse as I sit quietly trying to sip my morning coffee.
What a great example! Wright made the most of that Westcott lot. The neighbors were good friends and the houses were built at the same time... good juxtaposition of architecture. The planter would have served as screening with tall grasses and the driveway has been built up considerably. The interior may have been less exposed originally; but that was a summer sleeping porch just above.
I dare say though, Wright choose to challenge the official residential property line with the house not the muck door of the stable!
What a great example! Wright made the most of that Westcott lot. The neighbors were good friends and the houses were built at the same time... good juxtaposition of architecture. The planter would have served as screening with tall grasses and the driveway has been built up considerably. The interior may have been less exposed originally; but that was a summer sleeping porch just above.
I dare say though, Wright choose to challenge the official residential property line with the house not the muck door of the stable!
Mr. Virr;
Congratulations; maybe time to retire!
Your original post was an personal attack on a group of people and had little or nothing to do with FLLW.
Though as we all know FLLW did have his run-ins with the government; you're using an FLLW forum to vent your personal greivances.
Anyone may give one side of the story anywhere on the internet; if they make a personal attack on a group of people anyone else may post an aternate opinion.
Adults don't post on the internet anonymous personal crtiticisms of any particular group; perhaps you've progressed from an adult back to a child?
Yes; the construction codes are difficult, and government staff also may be difficult. A smart professional, at least in the U.S., has to embrace all the complexities of the profession and work with them to accomplish their client's goals.
Please; in the future keep your personal issues to yourself, or post them on an Australian personal venting website, discussions of FLLW are most welcome.
Congratulations; maybe time to retire!
Your original post was an personal attack on a group of people and had little or nothing to do with FLLW.
Though as we all know FLLW did have his run-ins with the government; you're using an FLLW forum to vent your personal greivances.
Anyone may give one side of the story anywhere on the internet; if they make a personal attack on a group of people anyone else may post an aternate opinion.
Adults don't post on the internet anonymous personal crtiticisms of any particular group; perhaps you've progressed from an adult back to a child?
Yes; the construction codes are difficult, and government staff also may be difficult. A smart professional, at least in the U.S., has to embrace all the complexities of the profession and work with them to accomplish their client's goals.
Please; in the future keep your personal issues to yourself, or post them on an Australian personal venting website, discussions of FLLW are most welcome.
-
Palli Davis Holubar
- Posts: 1036
- Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2006 8:14 am
- Location: Wakeman, Ohio
-
Paul Ringstrom
- Posts: 4777
- Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:53 pm
- Location: Mason City, IA
Those of you familiar with the work of Bart Prince might also wonder how in the world he got some of those buildings approved and actually built. His buildings stand all across this country and overseas. He is an extremely amiable fellow and no doubt that helped somewhat. I attended a lecture by him at Monona Terrace last year and related a story where he was trying to get a building permit for a house and was having an very loud "discussion" with the local bldg official when the official's boss came over and told him "give him the permit, he will never get it built anyway."
-
Roderick Grant
- Posts: 11815
- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am
Clifton Webb? Did I miss something? One of my favorite actors of yore.
I lived in New York for a few years, and did not like it; not my kind of town. But one thing about it I did like: People spoke their mind without filtering out the expletives or prettying it up with politesse. They really know how to fight, mostly, one assumes, for the purposes of self defense. It isn't an 'exciting' city so much as a 'frenetic' one, moving targets being harder to hit. I used to throw things at my boss when he pissed me off. He would just run for cover. We could all express ourselves here with the kind of propriety that Lily Tomlin used to parody on "Laugh In," but that would be boring. Say what you please, I say. Rock on Ms Virr!!
I lived in New York for a few years, and did not like it; not my kind of town. But one thing about it I did like: People spoke their mind without filtering out the expletives or prettying it up with politesse. They really know how to fight, mostly, one assumes, for the purposes of self defense. It isn't an 'exciting' city so much as a 'frenetic' one, moving targets being harder to hit. I used to throw things at my boss when he pissed me off. He would just run for cover. We could all express ourselves here with the kind of propriety that Lily Tomlin used to parody on "Laugh In," but that would be boring. Say what you please, I say. Rock on Ms Virr!!
Roderick, how could you miss the unusual concordance between the (written) voice of Laurie, here -- precise and careful, perhaps retardataire (I will not say pedantic) and simmeringly angry -- and the (written, performed) voice of the actor ? I knew I was reminded of something, or someone -- and it struck me after his latest post last evening. . .
I reserve for myself the right to tweak my familiar companions at will -- while vigorously defending them against agitators from "outside the walls". . .!
Stephen
I reserve for myself the right to tweak my familiar companions at will -- while vigorously defending them against agitators from "outside the walls". . .!
Stephen
-
Laurie Virr
- Posts: 472
- Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:32 pm
craig j:
Reading your latest post on this topic left me in a quandary: I did not know whether to laugh or cry.
It is customary among intelligent, educated people to respond, to the best of one’s ability, to the queries raised in conversation and correspondence. Perhaps you have. Finding yourself cornered, and isolated on this topic - there has yet to be a single post that supports your point of view, whilst there has been no lack of opprobrium for it - you resort to bluster and statements that border on the infantile.
Your latest post is yet again redolent of your apparent belief that public servants are inherently entitled to respect, whereas it is generally assumed that it is an attribute that is earned.
What of my assertion that those with real ability, and who are worthy of respect, would be unlikely to be attracted to a career assessing the work of others? What of all the other assertions and queries I have made, regarding which you have made no attempt to rebut or answer?
It is not 'all the complexities of the profession that some smart professionals, at least in the U.S., have to embrace and work with to accomplish their client's goals', but rather the complexes of some of those assessing their work.
We are surely left with the picture of the public servant whose image of himself, and his importance, is inflated to the extent that one is left wondering why, with an imagination like that, he is not in the real world, working as a gifted designer. But experience has taught us that with such an individual as an assessor there would be no acceptance of the spirit of any building legislation. Rather would it be the application of the dead letter of the law. He would be, as Louis Henri Sullivan put it, “Educated far beyond his capacity’.
Reading your latest post on this topic left me in a quandary: I did not know whether to laugh or cry.
It is customary among intelligent, educated people to respond, to the best of one’s ability, to the queries raised in conversation and correspondence. Perhaps you have. Finding yourself cornered, and isolated on this topic - there has yet to be a single post that supports your point of view, whilst there has been no lack of opprobrium for it - you resort to bluster and statements that border on the infantile.
Your latest post is yet again redolent of your apparent belief that public servants are inherently entitled to respect, whereas it is generally assumed that it is an attribute that is earned.
What of my assertion that those with real ability, and who are worthy of respect, would be unlikely to be attracted to a career assessing the work of others? What of all the other assertions and queries I have made, regarding which you have made no attempt to rebut or answer?
It is not 'all the complexities of the profession that some smart professionals, at least in the U.S., have to embrace and work with to accomplish their client's goals', but rather the complexes of some of those assessing their work.
We are surely left with the picture of the public servant whose image of himself, and his importance, is inflated to the extent that one is left wondering why, with an imagination like that, he is not in the real world, working as a gifted designer. But experience has taught us that with such an individual as an assessor there would be no acceptance of the spirit of any building legislation. Rather would it be the application of the dead letter of the law. He would be, as Louis Henri Sullivan put it, “Educated far beyond his capacity’.
This is getting old fast -- but:
Mr Craig J has not once discussed "what this site is about" -- Frank Lloyd Wright -- in the very short time he has been with us; his presence and sole focus seems to be about defending a group of [ahem] anonymous bureaucrats, against an imagined slander.
It is hardly the place of a new poster to pronounce on anything found here -- unless perhaps it had to do with the subject of the thread, which is titled "Frank Lloyd Wright's struggles with officialdom."
He would not be in the position to declare "what this site is all about" -- and thus I find his own statements amount to "an abuse of the site."
Kindly quit it, or leave.
Stephen
Mr Craig J has not once discussed "what this site is about" -- Frank Lloyd Wright -- in the very short time he has been with us; his presence and sole focus seems to be about defending a group of [ahem] anonymous bureaucrats, against an imagined slander.
It is hardly the place of a new poster to pronounce on anything found here -- unless perhaps it had to do with the subject of the thread, which is titled "Frank Lloyd Wright's struggles with officialdom."
He would not be in the position to declare "what this site is all about" -- and thus I find his own statements amount to "an abuse of the site."
Kindly quit it, or leave.
Stephen
Indeed.....time to move on. But wait....may I add a building dept. experience from a few years ago....The drawings had been "under review" for a few months, feeling the pressure from the client I schedule a meeting with our assigned plan checker. Prior to this meeting I made several calls to the plan checker asking for progress and offering to answer any questions that might move things along, but the plan checker kept commenting of the complexities of the project...He agreed to a meeting. The client and me sat down with the plan checker...and he just started asking really basic questions that were already asked at check in...months ago. I said to him that he is acting as if this was the first time he saw the drawings....he gave me an angry look, then closed the set of drawings and walked out. 10 minutes later an assistant informed me that I has insulted the great checker of plans, and was done with me.....The client ripped him a new one, and the plans were approved. Mr. Virr.....I do feel your pain...
KevinW