So Robie is likely to have some sort of "radiant" heat?
Great find.
First Wright house with radiant floor heating
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Jeff Myers
- Posts: 1813
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No -- Robie was to have just the radiators under the line of french doors -- and in fact it does not have them, because they weren't installed. That is all.
I had been hoping to find something on under-slab heating in Sweeney's "Wright in Hollywood," since it covers the 'twenties, the period in Wright's
career that preceded the Usonian developments. But his index is sparse, including almost nothing but proper nouns. In any event, the book
spends much of its time with the various iterations of the Textile Block. . .
Incidentally, I yesterday came across John Wright's mention (in "My Father. . .") of Wright's philosophy about indexes (p 26):
"He performed all the functions of an architect, only he performed them differently.
He designed round drawers for square stationery !
He performed all the functions of an author, only he performed them differently.
He permitted no index in his books !
Not innocent of rudeness he boldly and knowingly broke the fetters of form. His devotion to his ideals caused his stubborn cry: "No Compromise"
-- his courage and love for his work, later inspired in me the love for architecture.
He was the man whom I called Papa."
SDR
I had been hoping to find something on under-slab heating in Sweeney's "Wright in Hollywood," since it covers the 'twenties, the period in Wright's
career that preceded the Usonian developments. But his index is sparse, including almost nothing but proper nouns. In any event, the book
spends much of its time with the various iterations of the Textile Block. . .
Incidentally, I yesterday came across John Wright's mention (in "My Father. . .") of Wright's philosophy about indexes (p 26):
"He performed all the functions of an architect, only he performed them differently.
He designed round drawers for square stationery !
He performed all the functions of an author, only he performed them differently.
He permitted no index in his books !
Not innocent of rudeness he boldly and knowingly broke the fetters of form. His devotion to his ideals caused his stubborn cry: "No Compromise"
-- his courage and love for his work, later inspired in me the love for architecture.
He was the man whom I called Papa."
SDR
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Roderick Grant
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- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am
Imperial had radiators only.
Storrer's ground floor was made of textile blocks, some of which were removed by the owner prior to Joel with the plan of digging out a basement room where he could conduct primal scream therapy in private. If there is heating there now, it was added by Joel who put in the slab with the scored lines.
All the block houses of the 20s had electric space heaters placed about the house. La Miniatura added a forced air heating system (in the course of which they cut through a structural post in the kitchen causing it and the baths above to sag significantly) early on, not, I believe, by Mrs. Millard, but either the second or third owner. A sizable register shows in photos of the living room.
Hanna considered a hot-water system, but decided the fluctuations between cold and hot weather in California were so abrupt that such a system would not be flexible enough, so they installed forced air instead. The element of Hanna I would like to see more of is the concrete tunnel under the house that carried all the utilities.
Storrer's ground floor was made of textile blocks, some of which were removed by the owner prior to Joel with the plan of digging out a basement room where he could conduct primal scream therapy in private. If there is heating there now, it was added by Joel who put in the slab with the scored lines.
All the block houses of the 20s had electric space heaters placed about the house. La Miniatura added a forced air heating system (in the course of which they cut through a structural post in the kitchen causing it and the baths above to sag significantly) early on, not, I believe, by Mrs. Millard, but either the second or third owner. A sizable register shows in photos of the living room.
Hanna considered a hot-water system, but decided the fluctuations between cold and hot weather in California were so abrupt that such a system would not be flexible enough, so they installed forced air instead. The element of Hanna I would like to see more of is the concrete tunnel under the house that carried all the utilities.
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TaliesinRed
- Posts: 22
- Joined: Wed Feb 10, 2010 4:48 pm
Well I live in Altadena and have been in the Beard house on many occasions.
The scored lines on the floor do NOT lay out a construction grid as do Wright's USONIAN floors. They are the standard Southern California Spanish red scored concrete of their time. They do not have hot water radiant floor heat in them. They are not like Mr. Wright's slab heat system, they do not show the construction grid system, and they do not have the finish of Mr. Wright's floors.
The scored lines on the floor do NOT lay out a construction grid as do Wright's USONIAN floors. They are the standard Southern California Spanish red scored concrete of their time. They do not have hot water radiant floor heat in them. They are not like Mr. Wright's slab heat system, they do not show the construction grid system, and they do not have the finish of Mr. Wright's floors.
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Roderick Grant
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- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am
flwfan, you are correct. I believe the psychologist who owned the house prior to Joel gave up on the idea of a basement and poured a plain slab. I saw the interior just after Joel bought the house, before restoration began, and the first floor had the grace of a garage. Joel also had to deal with painted interior walls done by the artist who preceded the psycho. The job Joel did on that house is remarkable.
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Roderick Grant
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- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am
Radiant Heating
I realize that this is somewhat off topic, but I once took a group of people from Korea on a tour of the Weltzheimer House. They were quick to point out that the heating system was know as "Korean heating" Hot air instead of hot water.
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Roderick Grant
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- Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am
“Airfloor� is a patented concrete floor forming system that consists of interlocking domes that can be installed over a work slab so as to form a continuous underfloor cavity through which heated (or cooled) air can be blown or drawn, by which means one can achieve radiant concrete floor panels, with the option of also having forced air outlets augmenting them or providing air to other spaces.
WJS
WJS
Fascinating topic. What amazes me about the system FLW employed is what they didn't know about basic things at that time. For example, it was not known that steam follows the hottest pipe, and it therefore takes a very long time for a floor heated with steam to equalise temperature.
And, of course, it wasn't steam which came out of the return pipe, but water. The condensation process is extremely exothermic, and therefore hot spots are created all over the place prior to equalising of temperatures.
What surprised me in Herbert's book "Building with Frank Lloyd Wright" was the construction technique of putting the pipes through the gravel underneath the concrete slab, instead of within it. Clearly, not much thought was put into it, as the gravel, even well packed, is a very inefficient mover of heat into the slab, reducing the efficiency by as much as an order of magnitude.
Also, no attempt was made by Wright to prevent heat escaping downwards; modern houses being built on at least 50mm and preferably 100mm of polystyrene. (My version of the Jacobs-1 house sat atop 100mm of the stuff, but did NOT employ in-floor heating due to crazy expense, and lack of extreme temperatures in New Zealand.)
Jacobs system was converted to hot water at some point to increase efficiency, and during the extensive renovations of Jacobs done in the 90s, the main floor section of the home was completely replaced (Lounge/living area) where a new set of pipework was laid within the slab. There is a very interesting thesis available on the web contrasting the two sections of the house, and how they work; many many temperature sensors were installed to produce the thesis, and it makes for fascinating reading.
And, of course, it wasn't steam which came out of the return pipe, but water. The condensation process is extremely exothermic, and therefore hot spots are created all over the place prior to equalising of temperatures.
What surprised me in Herbert's book "Building with Frank Lloyd Wright" was the construction technique of putting the pipes through the gravel underneath the concrete slab, instead of within it. Clearly, not much thought was put into it, as the gravel, even well packed, is a very inefficient mover of heat into the slab, reducing the efficiency by as much as an order of magnitude.
Also, no attempt was made by Wright to prevent heat escaping downwards; modern houses being built on at least 50mm and preferably 100mm of polystyrene. (My version of the Jacobs-1 house sat atop 100mm of the stuff, but did NOT employ in-floor heating due to crazy expense, and lack of extreme temperatures in New Zealand.)
Jacobs system was converted to hot water at some point to increase efficiency, and during the extensive renovations of Jacobs done in the 90s, the main floor section of the home was completely replaced (Lounge/living area) where a new set of pipework was laid within the slab. There is a very interesting thesis available on the web contrasting the two sections of the house, and how they work; many many temperature sensors were installed to produce the thesis, and it makes for fascinating reading.
How many escape pods are there? "NONE, SIR!" You counted them? "TWICE, SIR!"
*Plotting to take over the world since 1965
*Plotting to take over the world since 1965
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Paul Ringstrom
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- Location: Mason City, IA
Reading in the 1943 edition of the Autobiography (looking for the first mention of gravity heat), I find that Wright begins his appreciation of
Japan on p 193 -- immediately after describing the tragic events that turned Taliesin I into Taliesin II, and (as a sad coda) the decline and
demise of Midway Gardens.
On p 194 is the paragraph titled "Japanese Prints"; Wright mentions that his first visit to Japan took place in 1906 -- "I had gone there to rest after
building the Larkin building and the Martin residence, all but tired out."
Beginning on p 196 we have Wright's lovingly thorough description of the Japanese dwelling (carrying through the theme of Shinto-informed
cleanliness which he finds everywhere in the public and private lives of the people). "Elimination of the inessential" is stressed, and then (almost
immediately) we have the tatami "module" (not a word he uses, here) and the manner in which the structure conforms completely to the 3 x 6-foot
mat. On the next page we have the kitchen, "tiled flat with the ground" (unlike the rest of the house) "and [which] also goes high up into the
rafters for ventilation." In the separate bathing house the tub is "always heated from beneath."
On p 199 we read about the Tokonoma, the "treasure-alcove" (his term) found in every home. "A single rare painting will be hung for a day in
proper season against the quiet-toned plaster walls of the Tokonoma. A single cultured flower arrangement in a beautiful vase. . .One fine piece of
sculpture. . .is allowed below that." "Literature, too, would be nearby, represented by some poet's profound saying in fine writing framed and
hung. . . All these things, however fine, mind you, must be appropriate. And they must be in season or they are not appropriate." Then, "We in
the West couldn't live in Japanese houses, and we shouldn't. But we could live in houses disciplined by an ideal at least as high and fine
as this one of theirs. . ."
So, we see that Wright absorbed quite a bit -- perhaps on his first visit, or by other means -- of Japanese domestic culture, in order for it to
influence the Prairie house ? The kitchen reference obviously prefigures the Usonian workplace -- he is presumably writing, here, in 1932 ?
By page 252 -- through the construction of the hotel (and the subsequent earthquake), and ditto Hollyhock and La Miniatura -- there is yet no
mention of the Korean hot-air floor (the point of the present exercise). On this page Wright writes, "Some one hundred and seventy-nine
buildings, as this is written [1932] -- both large and small -- had been built from my own hand by now and are known as this work of mine. About
seventy more, the best ones, had life only on paper."
And, it isn't until page 494, following "The Usonian House II" -- "We have built some twenty-seven of them now. . ." [written prior to 1943] that
Wright introduces "Gravity Heat." And I will quote his 14 paragraphs on the subject, next.
SDR
Japan on p 193 -- immediately after describing the tragic events that turned Taliesin I into Taliesin II, and (as a sad coda) the decline and
demise of Midway Gardens.
On p 194 is the paragraph titled "Japanese Prints"; Wright mentions that his first visit to Japan took place in 1906 -- "I had gone there to rest after
building the Larkin building and the Martin residence, all but tired out."
Beginning on p 196 we have Wright's lovingly thorough description of the Japanese dwelling (carrying through the theme of Shinto-informed
cleanliness which he finds everywhere in the public and private lives of the people). "Elimination of the inessential" is stressed, and then (almost
immediately) we have the tatami "module" (not a word he uses, here) and the manner in which the structure conforms completely to the 3 x 6-foot
mat. On the next page we have the kitchen, "tiled flat with the ground" (unlike the rest of the house) "and [which] also goes high up into the
rafters for ventilation." In the separate bathing house the tub is "always heated from beneath."
On p 199 we read about the Tokonoma, the "treasure-alcove" (his term) found in every home. "A single rare painting will be hung for a day in
proper season against the quiet-toned plaster walls of the Tokonoma. A single cultured flower arrangement in a beautiful vase. . .One fine piece of
sculpture. . .is allowed below that." "Literature, too, would be nearby, represented by some poet's profound saying in fine writing framed and
hung. . . All these things, however fine, mind you, must be appropriate. And they must be in season or they are not appropriate." Then, "We in
the West couldn't live in Japanese houses, and we shouldn't. But we could live in houses disciplined by an ideal at least as high and fine
as this one of theirs. . ."
So, we see that Wright absorbed quite a bit -- perhaps on his first visit, or by other means -- of Japanese domestic culture, in order for it to
influence the Prairie house ? The kitchen reference obviously prefigures the Usonian workplace -- he is presumably writing, here, in 1932 ?
By page 252 -- through the construction of the hotel (and the subsequent earthquake), and ditto Hollyhock and La Miniatura -- there is yet no
mention of the Korean hot-air floor (the point of the present exercise). On this page Wright writes, "Some one hundred and seventy-nine
buildings, as this is written [1932] -- both large and small -- had been built from my own hand by now and are known as this work of mine. About
seventy more, the best ones, had life only on paper."
And, it isn't until page 494, following "The Usonian House II" -- "We have built some twenty-seven of them now. . ." [written prior to 1943] that
Wright introduces "Gravity Heat." And I will quote his 14 paragraphs on the subject, next.
SDR