Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

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SDR
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Location: San Francisco

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by SDR »

(See previous page)

This elevation shows no header . . .

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g.dorn
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by g.dorn »

g.dorn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:56 pm Oh Mr Blase, thanks for contributing to this thread and sharing details of your fab home- its a real Gem.

<snip>

3. is there any indication of how the Living room roof - upper corner closest to entrance - is there any indications of a support in the bedroom wall.

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<snip>

thanks
I partial answer/questioning to my above query, Ie recently noticed that the Upper roof framing plan

https://library.artstor.org/#/asset/285 ... 7716330288

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seems to indicate a 10" ( 250mm) steel flinch plate in the lower deck fascia, which I guess then supports the upper roof framing via the clerestory window framing.
specifically is says " 10" flinch plate bolted between double header. in lower roof below perforated board"

This flinch plate is indicated as a dotted line, and goes from chimney toward bedroom over lanai doors and over to the wall adjacent , a similar one is indicated at the studio lower roof too.

I also note that the "superimposed" word is used to describe the upper roof framing ie. UPPER ROOF, joins 3-2"x4"s superimposed 2'0" o'c 9' 93/4" from mat.
"superimpose" is also in the Lower Roof note, but with "toe nailing" added!
G Dorn
Perth, Western Australia

SDR
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by SDR »

"Superimpose" was apparently thought more appropriate than "stacked," a common term for the same thing . . .?

The framing of this roof, and in particular the steel (such as it is) for the carport cantilever has always puzzled me---despite an attempt at explanation in an Old House Journal article that "search" tells me is found in this thread.

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SDR
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
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Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by SDR »

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SDR
Posts: 22076
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
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Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by SDR »

I do think that, had I the task of structuring that cantilever, I would send a hefty wide-flange member from the carport roof, through the chimney, and all the way to the far edge of the Alcove roof, where there would be one of Wright's vertical tension rods down to the slab, passing through one of the clerestory mullions. I really can't understand why that opportunity, which seems obvious to me, was not taken. The wide-flange would support, probably from above, a longitudinal steel beam extending as far as necessary toward the end of the carport roof.

S

g.dorn
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by g.dorn »

I got curious about what else might be at the Avery archives , and look , they have a whole section of Photos of buildings.
see
https://findingaids.library.columbia.ed ... 1345/dsc/6

GW house project 3907 has

Alma Goestch and Kathrine Winckler house 1 (Okemos, Michigan)., circa 1939-1942, 1952, undated
46 photographic items

location: Photo Box 37 (12), Oversize Box 12 (5), Slide Binder 04 (6), Slide Binder 05 (2), Slide Binder 15 (7), Transparencies Box 8 (14)

unfortunately no online access - I guess these are all hardcopy.

I wonder if a local may be curious enough to go and book and appointment and have a look.
G Dorn
Perth, Western Australia

g.dorn
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by g.dorn »

blase wrote: Mon Jan 08, 2024 11:31 am Hi all, a dream come true for me —

<snip>

4. Lanai. The artificial turf in the lanai will be removed come spring, and we'll either replace with real grass, or possibly infill with Cherokee red concrete blocks, as has been done in the past (and looked pretty good!). We spoke to a couple landscapers who've worked on the property in previous years, and they mentioned that real grass does come with a few caveats. Apparently, the sun can reflect off the glazings on the Southern wall in the lanai in just the right way to burn the grass. There is also of course no easy access into the lanai from the outside, which makes mowing challenging. In any event, artificial turf has no business here! Previous owner also rebuilt the Western and Northern walls of the lanai (as well as patched the carport retaining wall), as there were boards that had rotted. Due to difficult in sourcing long redwood planks as would be required for this job, cypress was used instead.
<snip>
Thanks for reading, and I'm so happy to be a part of the community. I'll continue to post in this topic as we make progress or are in need of advice. Cheers! :D
You have an interesting choice to make - here is some photos of the past versions.

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also

looks like many trees have been removed, quite some time ago.

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ImageGoetsch-Winckler House (1940) Frank Lloyd Wright by Michigan State Historic Preservation Office, on Flickr
G Dorn
Perth, Western Australia

blase
Posts: 14
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Location: Midland, Michigan
Contact:

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by blase »

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Update Feb 13, 2024
  • Current re-screening status:

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  • A number of plastic switch plates and outlet covers have been swapped out with contemporary Bryant brass switch plates that I swiped from Ebay. They all look like they were there since the home was built!
  • The gas fireplace has been repaired (needed a new regulator). Just in time for spring.. :cry:
  • The original bathroom mirror has been restored.
  • We have purchased an original Goetsch artwork from the 1960's and are having it framed. We are thinking of putting it in the Goetsch bedroom. All of the artwork in the home are original Goetsch or Winckler works, and we hope to continue that tradition!
  • We are working with the building conservancy re how best to repair, restore, and protect the concrete. It is quite damaged.
g.dorn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:56 pm In the study of the construction fo this house, a number of unknowns have become evident which I hope you can enlighten us on.

1. the grills in the exterior brickwork below the living planter box. - is there a void there? if not what is there?
plate 18 suggests that this became the location for the water heater. The door on the street facing brickwork seems to suggest this space maybe quite large? any chance of some interior photos of this below floor space?
There is a void there. This is where the water heater and boiler live, and access is through a panel in the side of the brick wall. I've outlined it in red in your photo below. The utilities were originally designed to go in the kitchen, but the homeowners and the builder worked together to move them underneath the house. This caused quite a stir from Wright!!

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g.dorn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:56 pm 2. basement - please provide some photos of basement entry via tool cupboard, showing steps and indication of how big/where the basement is ( under kitchen?)
plate 18 states it's s danish cellar and the heater was relocated to below the planter box ( grills as per question 1.)
Both sides of the tool cupboard open, but notably the middle does not. Goetsch and Winckler were canning enthusiasts, and asked the builder to include a cellar so that they had more space for their canning. It is quite roomy (just watch your head!), and is below the carport. None of the basement sits below the kitchen.

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Here is a photo of the basement when we toured the home during inspection. Note the original Standard sink, which has since been happily reinstalled :D
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g.dorn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:56 pm 4. the heater room( kitchen) can you please provide some photos of it - I'm just curious - its seems like a rather large appendage to a kitchen workspace!
As mentioned, the heater actually moved underneath the house. The most common floorplan of the GW house shared among Wright fans is actually not accurate :)

We're at the house most weekends. If there's anything else I can look into for you, please let me know.
Nate
Homeowner, Goetsch–Winckler house (S.269, 1940)

g.dorn
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by g.dorn »

oh wow, thank you for replying and providing these photos and explanations, and your kind offer.
blase wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:47 am <snip>

1. the grills in the exterior brickwork below the living planter box. - is there a void there? if not what is there?
plate 18 suggests that this became the location for the water heater. The door on the street facing brickwork seems to suggest this space maybe quite large? any chance of some interior photos of this below floor space?
There is a void there. This is where the water heater and boiler live, and access is through a panel in the side of the brick wall. I've outlined it in red in your photo below. The utilities were originally designed to go in the kitchen, but the homeowners and the builder worked together to move them underneath the house. This caused quite a stir from Wright!!

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[/quote]


right, so, this space is quite wide, which I gather then its partially under the corner of the living room and partially under the planter box. The bricks seem like the larger (2 brick) fast wall bricks. And the floor looks like its bear ground, that was been wet at times!
blase wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:47 am
g.dorn wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2024 9:56 pm 2. basement - please provide some photos of basement entry via tool cupboard, showing steps and indication of how big/where the basement is ( under kitchen?)
plate 18 states it's s danish cellar and the heater was relocated to below the planter box ( grills as per question 1.)
Both sides of the tool cupboard open, but notably the middle does not. Goetsch and Winckler were canning enthusiasts, and asked the builder to include a cellar so that they had more space for their canning. It is quite roomy (just watch your head!), and is below the carport. None of the basement sits below the kitchen.

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Here is a photo of the basement when we toured the home during inspection. Note the original Standard sink, which has since been happily reinstalled :D
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I can see on the far left side of the slab soffit, what looks like 4 square holes with like shining down them - do they open into the kitchen ?

and

Does the concrete beam coincide with the kitchen exterior wall over?
blase wrote: Tue Feb 13, 2024 10:47 am <snip>

We're at the house most weekends. If there's anything else I can look into for you, please let me know.
If I was in your part of the world, I'd drop in for a friendly visit and ask my pesky questions in person ! but alas I'm Western Australia

PS when I went to Taliesin West in 1994, and stayed as a guest for 2 weeks, Bruce inviting me into the "Vault" to look at the FLW archives. - This house was one the first houses I got the drawings out and studied. A highlight of my stay - in the vault.
G Dorn
Perth, Western Australia

blase
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Location: Midland, Michigan
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Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by blase »

g.dorn wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 12:35 am I can see on the far left side of the slab soffit, what looks like 4 square holes with like shining down them - do they open into the kitchen ?

and

Does the concrete beam coincide with the kitchen exterior wall over?
Very keen eye!! I had thought to mention those, but didn't have the photos in my camera roll to help explain. I'll try to describe what and where these are using the floorplan.

Only two of those four skylights actually let light in. In fact, the other two don't have glass in them. Those lights open up to the West side of the carport.

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You'll see that the right two are actually buried under the concrete walkway, but there is a vent cut into the concrete to let light/air in.

My guess is that the builders cut the holes for the lights before pouring the walkway, but the builders didn't expect the walkway to overhang the East wall by about 8 inches. This ended up covering the right two lights. Or, possibly, there was a need for ventilation, but the middle section of the tool cupboard already has vents.

Below you can see the footprint of the basement underneath the carport (none of the basement lies underneath the kitchen). I've also indicated where my photo was taken with field of view in green.

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Nate
Homeowner, Goetsch–Winckler house (S.269, 1940)

SDR
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Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by SDR »

So, the cellar footprint is the entire colored rectangle ? This is an enlargement of the originally-drawn cellar, presumably dating to the original construction ? These are aspects---the cellar, the "skylights"---not previously approached, at Wright Chat, anyway. Such examination pleases me no end . . .

I had marveled at (is that really an expression ?) the unusual cutouts in the tool cupboard---but that only scratched the surface of things in this part of the house, clearly !

What is the construction of the cellar ceiling/roof---designed to carry the weight of a car . . .? Is it a slab ?

S

blase
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Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by blase »

SDR wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:12 pm So, the cellar footprint is the entire colored rectangle ? This is an enlargement of the originally-drawn cellar, presumably dating to the original construction ? These are aspects---the cellar, the "skylights"---not previously approached, at Wright Chat, anyway. Such examination pleases me no end . . .
Yep, the red rectangle is the entire cellar footprint, give or take.
SDR wrote: Wed Feb 14, 2024 6:12 pm What is the construction of the cellar ceiling/roof---designed to carry the weight of a car . . .? Is it a slab ?
It is slab.
Nate
Homeowner, Goetsch–Winckler house (S.269, 1940)

SDR
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Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
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Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by SDR »

Thanks ! So interesting . . . A section drawing shows the width of the celler, and stairs that descend from . . . where ? I find no plan including the cellar, so its intended length can only be inferred from what was built ?

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Photo by Simon Clay, from Frank Lloyd Wright - A Visual Encyclopedia, Iain Thomson, © 1999-2000

g.dorn
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by g.dorn »

SDR wrote: Fri Feb 16, 2024 10:17 pm Thanks ! So interesting . . . A section drawing shows the width of the celler, and stairs that descend from . . . where ? I find no plan including the cellar, so its intended length can only be inferred from what was built ?
<snip>

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Photo by Simon Clay, from Frank Lloyd Wright - A Visual Encyclopedia, Iain Thomson, © 1999-2000
In this photo when I saw it a few years ago, i thought those grey things at the step was either a small step or just some junk/firewood in its wrong place - who would of though that its actually some sort of vent to a cellar/cold room underneath!
G Dorn
Perth, Western Australia

g.dorn
Posts: 304
Joined: Wed Jan 11, 2006 12:59 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia

Re: Goetsch-Winckler Usonian house

Post by g.dorn »

Mr Base ,
in the kitchen - along entry wall , we suspect there is a steel beam in the roof that runs directly above high kitchen window wall and cantilevers out to from the main support for the carport roof.

To support this beam , I suspect there this some steel posts within the high window framing - is there any indication that might be so ( ie wider window mullion) - presuming of course that the window framing is timber

the steel beam
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where I think it is
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and how it might be supported

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What do you think and or see?
G Dorn
Perth, Western Australia

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