The roof over Kentuck Knob

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Laurie Virr
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Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:32 pm

The roof over Kentuck Knob

Post by Laurie Virr »

Frank Lloyd Wright’s house for I.N. and Bernardine Hagan has a copper clad, Bermuda style roof. Careful examination of the large scale images of the roof would suggest that despite the length of that over the bedroom wing, there are very few, if any, cross, lock joint seams, but no buckling.

Do any Wright Chatters have information as to the measures taken to allow for linear expansion of the metal, which must be significant?

A budget version, with a different detail, designed, optimistically, to attain the same appearance, was employed by William Wesley Peters for the Snowflake Motel. It was not a success.

SDR
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Location: San Francisco

Post by SDR »

These photos were supplied to me by an unknown source, no doubt on this forum, some time ago.


Image

Image

Tom
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Location: Black Mountain, NC

Post by Tom »

Nice question.

Paul Ringstrom
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Location: Mason City, IA

Post by Paul Ringstrom »

I have always loved that style roof.

Has anyone seen one of these installed recently?

I presume that there is some lumber support under the crease...

Roderick Grant
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Post by Roderick Grant »

An advertisement for copper that appeared in a magazine in the 50s shows details of how this roof was constructed. The frame for the copper is plywood. I'll try to dig it up.

DRN
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Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

Post by DRN »

ATAS International used to produce Bermuda seam metal roof panels in either galvanized or Kynar500 paint finish. I spec'd them on some projects in the '90's with good results. As I recall, the company rep I worked with on the projects noted that it was not a popular product, possibly due to the need for careful detailing and installation to prevent infiltration if ice dams occur.

Roderick Grant
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Post by Roderick Grant »

DRN, it could also have been unpopular because of price. Ronnie Reisley told me that years after building their house, they contemplated either replacing the red roll roofing with the originally specified copper or buying a new Mercedes Benz. The Benz won out.

Tom
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Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:53 pm
Location: Black Mountain, NC

Post by Tom »

Some kind of "splice plate" underneath the butt joined flush ends? Mastic or caulk used to stop full water penetration?

Laurie Virr
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Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:32 pm

Post by Laurie Virr »

SDR:

Thank you for posting the images of the Hagan roof. They are those to which I was referring in my initial post.

Roderick:

The detail you are seeking was issued by the Follansbee Terne company. It depicted a typical cross section thru a roof, but made no mention of expansion joints in long runs. Terne metal was produced in 50 feet long rolls.

FLLW wrote an endorsement of the product for the company, which was published widely.

Canted battens and 1/2" plywood formed the base over which the metal was laid.

I recall that the John and Syd Dobkins house originally had a terne metal roof, but the need to have it painted at frequent intervals persuaded them to embrace copper.

DRN:

Do you still have the details of the roofs you designed?

Paul Ringstrom
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Joined: Sat Sep 17, 2005 4:53 pm
Location: Mason City, IA

Post by Paul Ringstrom »

Atlas International's Rumba Roof
http://www.atas.com/Products/Roof/Shing ... roductInfo

I don't like the detail on the hips.
No mention of support for the ridges, maybe if the gauge is thick enough there would be no need.

Berridge Bermuda Roof System
http://www.berridge.com/bermroof.htm
CAD Details: http://www.berridge.com/Bermuda-Roof-Panel.pdf

Met-Fab
http://www.met-fab.com/products/panels/bermudahorizon/

DavidC
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Location: Oak Ridge, TN

Post by DavidC »

The specs on Penfield II's metal roof called for: immediately after installation, apply prime coat Martin-Senour "Metal Prime" #1645. Follow with two coats "Poly-Flow" Exterior Emulsion finish, color 1X26 (turquoise).

The roofing material itself that was called for was: terne plate IC-40# coated Follansbee Seamless Terne Roofing, Follansbee Steel Corp., Follansbee, West Virgina.

Workmanship:

a.) Tern plate roofing and flashing: Apply in strict accord with the manufacturer's directions. Apply rosin sized paper over areas covered by terne plate. Shop coat underside of terne plate. Horizontal seams: "Bermuda" type (Modified). Cross seams: single locked, solder joints, staggered. Don not nail through sheets or flashing. Secure with terne plate cleats 8" o.c. nailed with 2 galv. iron nails. Mallet seams flat and soak well with 50-50 solder, using only rosin-core flux. at ridges, valleys and hips, first install an extra layer of terne plate, 8" wide. Upper layer of plate in ridges, valleys and hips: mitered, soldered lock seams. Make sure Painting Contractor applies two coats of paint immediately after roofing is installed.

b.) At junction of flat roof and masonry, set sheet metal base flashing, extending 8" into roof. Set through-wall counter flashing, extending through wall and turning up 1". Install flashing with adequate provision for expansion and contraction, with elastic cement in expansion joints. Joints in flashing other than expansion joints shall be soldered flat double lock seams.


David

Laurie Virr
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Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 5:32 pm

Post by Laurie Virr »

Thank you David for this contribution.

Penfield II was designed after Kentuck Knob, the house for Willard and Karen Keland, and that for Harold Price Jr., so presumably the specifications for the roof reflect experiences gained on those dwellings.

Nevertheless, I am not entirely convinced of the efficacy of the work practices advocated. No mention is made in the specifications of the recommended distances between lock joints, nor is there reference to this matter in the Follansbee literature of the 1950’s in my possession.

The restoration of the copper roof on the John and Syd Dobkins house would appear to follow the dictates of the very best practice, and the soldered joints are immaculate.

This is in marked contrast to my experience here in Australia. Soldered joints have never proved to be successful, the material cracking and failing quickly, especially under the summer sun. Filling the lock joints with polyurethane sealant has proved to be more efficacious, but of course, such material was not commercially available in the early 1950’s.

Tom
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Location: Black Mountain, NC

Post by Tom »

DavidC and Laurie,
Are either of you able to post photos and drawings of what you are talking about here?
Soldered cross joints?! I don't get that, would seem to defeat the purpose, no?

dtc
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Joined: Mon Mar 05, 2007 9:04 am

Post by dtc »

I am posting a section of one drawing that illustrates some details of the metal roof on the John J.and Syd Dobkins house.
I apologize for the not so clear scan. As you can see the roof is a bit more complicated in design and of course installation than those that came after it, including Kentuck.

Note battens.

SDR
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Location: San Francisco

Post by SDR »

Here is the Dobkins roof detail from dtc:

Image

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