EFFECTIVE 14 Nov. 2012 PRIVATE MESSAGING HAS BEEN RE-ENABLED. IF YOU RECEIVE A SUSPICIOUS DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS AND PLEASE REPORT TO THE ADMINISTRATOR FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION.
This is the Frank Lloyd Wright Building Conservancy's Message Board. Wright enthusiasts can post questions and comments, and other people visiting the site can respond.
You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, *-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time they see fit.
The benefit was the ability to have a truly sealable air space between the sheets of glass, which is virtually impossible with a mitered glass joint because of the inevitable differences of expansion/contraction of the glass on either side of the corner.
It was very expensive. I would have used it if could have found a client that was willing to pay for it (I tried). It seems other architects didn't spec it much either, and it was discontinued not long after it was introduced. I heard rumors that it was fragile, but I'm not sure of the accuracy of that.
I remember a story where a glass subcontractor told Wright he did not think he could make a 45 degree edge. Wright asked him if he had ever tried it, and the glass man said no. Wright responded that he should try it. The glass man did, and they had a 45 degree glass edge. This also may be the case today. There is often great resistance to try anything different in building construction.
Section 2406 of the 2006 International Building Code goes in to great detail about safety glazing, but in a nut shell...
Any individual pane of stationary glass over 9 square feet in size, within 18" of the floor or walking surface, whose top is greater than 36" above the floor or walking surface must be tempered.
Any glazing in swinging or sliding doors, including fixed sidelights, must be tempered.
Any glazing within a 24" arc of either vertical edge of the door in the closed position that is 60" or less above the floor or walking surface must be tempered.
I too understand that glass cannot be beveled once tempered.
The glass may be able to be beveled then tempered?..at great cost?
I have heard of, but do not condone, the glass being fabricated out of polished plate glass, delivered to the house and installed by the owner.
(1) Upon reading the story of the Smith house in Michigan (The Sara Smith Story; Building a Dream), it was stated the cost of just the glass for the windows back in the 1950s was $5,000. The house cost $25,000! Turned out Smith couldn
Unlike the mitered glass corner, the lapped panel is unsupported and can flex in the wind. You would rely on the corner sealant to prevent this. On a very tall glass panel, the wind pressure may overcome the adhesive sealant, and the outside will indeed be coming in.
Doug Kottom, Battle Lake
Designing and building our own usonian type home
"Where two panes of glass met at a corner, the glass was beveled to a specified angle, forming a miter joint. We had five of these so-called 'corner windows'. On returning home from one of our trips to Taliesin, we found Herman (Herman Keys, the general contractor) had installed all of the glass in the doors and windows. Much to our horror, he had not only installed the mitered glass windows but had then proceeded to use metal clamps such as you see in large commercial glass windows, to hold the corners together, as he was sure the windows would seperate. Of course, all of this had to be removed and the mitered corners restored to their original beauty."
Somewhat amusing, if you're not the one paying to have it done twice.
I can't believe that the effort of actually mitering the glass is worth the result. Isn't there a pulling as well as a pushing aerodynamic effect on building surfaces, particularly at corners ?
None of this addresses the insulating issue -- unless there is a noticable effect with thicker glass ?
I though I recalled the Pella product; glad to know I wasn't hallucinating. Thanks, DRN. (I too was intrigued by those GM back windows. I recall the first time I saw a car customizer replace the windshield center divider on a 'forties coupe with a butted joint -- in a 'fifties Car Craft magazine ! Would that be the Wright influence on car design ?)
SDR, in Haynes all the corner windows are â€œmiteredâ€� and NOT butt/lapped joints. The mitered edges make it look fist class and if I had to build the house today I would do â€œbentâ€� 90-degree (if possible) fist, then mitered and last butt joint. I have never seen butt joint windows but next time I go to Fallingwater Iâ€™ll take a closer look. The miter on Haynes is on all 5 corner windows are tight after 56 years. I donâ€™t think there is transparent sealant used. If it were, I would think it would discolor after several years.
I would be hesitant in using the Pella corner windows (assuming they were available). I have seen thermopane window seals break and a fog appears inside the window. I would be very upset if this happened to the expensive Pella corner window seal.
I often thought about wind load as well. Last fall there was a severe window storm. The neighborâ€™s vinyl siding was torn off and a small tree limb fell from one of my trees. All you can hear inside the Haynes great room was a little creaking from the roof flexing from the wind. Guests, along with myself, have always commented on how solid and unusually quiet the house is.
Reading this thread has gotten me very enthused! Thanks!!
Yes, this photo looks slick. But the other shots from other perspectives not. I was there in person.
Don't expect your LDH to turn out like this. This costs serious money and most that I have seen built (some in person) omitted key details to save money. Or, the owner made irrational modifications to the design. The problem is it so expensive that you can build a McMansion for the cost of this 2,600 sft design (the actual LDH draings I recall around 2,300 sft). It would be hard to recoup your investment with the LDH
Plus, Rattenburry was "involved" in this particular house. I am sure you would probably have to retain him, and probably retain a local architect in NJ as well.
Sorry I can't be more encouraging. Also note siding rotting to left of office due to water splasing.
Michael Schuk, you've been talking about building one in Kansas for over 1 year. Where do you stand?