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FLW Foundation out of control
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KevinW



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Architects design and build buildings that actually cast shadows in real life, and not the kind that the tech world has invented) who uses modeling software everyday, I appreciate some of the things you bring up. I guess I am having trouble understanding your beef with the foundation.
I am not sure why you reference the plastic toys.
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Last edited by KevinW on Thu Apr 07, 2011 6:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Ethos Erlanger



Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Questions from a neophyte:

1 Can Second Life be visited by the non-participating public ?

2 Are expenses such as land rents paid in real dollars ? To whom do such funds ultimately accrue ?

3 What is the difference between a "scale build" and a "tribute build" ?



S D R


Answer 1) Anyone may visit Second Life at no cost. They do have to sign up and then log on. They must learn to move their avatar in the three dimensional environment which is not easy without an investment of your time to get the hang of it.

Answer 2) The "land" is paid for by an initial purchase price to Linden Lab or to an existing owner. Then a monthly"tier" payment is made to Linden Lab. This Tier is much like rent or some people think of it as a tax. It pays for keeping the computer server running 24/7 that renders the land (in the case of this discussion, the Museum) for any visitor to view at any time. Just like a Website would pay a monthly fee to their ISP to host their site. And yes. These are real US Dollars that are paid to Linden Lab.

Answer 3) My interpretation of a scale build is one that comes as close to an architectural rendering as is possible with the tools available. It would be accurate in terms of length, width, and height. A staircase would have the exact same number of treads and risers as the drawings by the architect, or the actual building. The width and height of every window and door would be accurate. I was able to achieve and demonstrate accuracy in Second Life of within 1/2 inch of every dimension. This is to say if I knew the dimensions. Knowing the size of a modern residential door is pretty easy from a photograph. Most entry doors in the USA are 36 inches wide, and 6'-8" inches tall. It is much harder to know the size of a custom door and even harder to know the size of a door designed by FLW. It could be anything.

Mine may be only one interpretation of the term "Tribute Build" I never did one. Some may say that it would "Look Like" the original but be adapted to the needs of the virtual world or its residents. Things like stairways would be wider. Doors may be taller or wider. Rooms may not have closets because you simply cannot go inside of them, or have any way to move around inside such a narrow space. Windows may not be exactly the same size or the same number on any one wall. You might not find a basement or an attic. Hope I helped you understand this a bit more.
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Ethos Erlanger



Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myLiebermeisterAGG wrote:
As an Architect, (A real Architect who designs and builds buildings that actually cast shadows in real life, and not the kind that the tech world has invented) who uses modeling software everyday, I appreciate some of the things you bring up. I guess I am having trouble understanding your beef with the foundation.
I am not sure why you reference the plastic toys.


I do not feel they are applying the same standard to what we had achieved when they make a statement like this: "The Foundation terminated the license agreement with VMI for numerous reasons, including the fact that several of the buildings as constructed in Second Life and displayed by VMI did not accurately reflect the buildings as actually designed by Frank Lloyd Wright."

If the above statement of rational were applied to every product that they continue to license, I then wish to apply it to the plastic toys. These licensees had the same people overseeing their work as those who oversaw our work.

I believed the license we had stated that we would be allowed to show our work to their staff representative for review as well as access to the archives. This feature of the license was never realized. The person who initially worked out the agreement with us was well pleased by our work. Their staff changed and the tide turned.

The sum of their feedback was the termination of the license. Nothing more.

I felt under-served by the license and I felt abused by their heavy handedness.

When I was asked to come to Taliesin West, they would not even give me an agenda for the meeting so that I could prepare. They avoided my questions on the nature of the meeting until the last possible moment. I should have known I was going to my license termination. But I went anyway.

I went to the meeting fully committed to building a relationship based on trust. I was fully prepared to fix anything that could be fixed. I said this in the meeting. I built Fallingwater in Second Life and I knew what could and could not be done. I have build over 1,000 homes in my career and I know how to satisfied the architects, and the clients, and the building code official. How hard would it be to satisfy the terms of this license agreement? I had to give it my best effort. Have any of you had the same honor? I recommend against it. Let's compare notes if you have.
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KevinW



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If the foundations issue was the accuracy and quality of your models, then why not just move on, and improve your modeling skills? What are you hoping to accomplish by airing things out on this venue?
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Ethos Erlanger



Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

myLiebermeisterAGG wrote:
If the foundations issue was the accuracy and quality of your models, then why not just move on, and improve your modeling skills? What are you hoping to accomplish by airing things out on this venue?


In my eyes, the issue clearly was not the quality of the builds. In my opinion, their public statement that it was one of the reasons was disingenuous. It was inconsistent with all prior communications that I knew of that the museum had with them, or that I had with them. They made that statement solely to have something to say to the public. You seem to agree with them, but the members of the educational community within Second Life felt that the builds of Mr Wrights work were of special interest and had merit.

Our entire museum was based on Wright's work. We were focused. We had a passion for Wright's designs and educating the public about those designs. It is hard to change the love affair we have with Frank and turn our attention to one or more other worthy architects. But we will. The result will be that the history of architecture as displayed by the Museum will be missing one of the greats.

Now I see that your interest in this topic has waned and you want me to go away. Why do you keep asking questions? I came here to answer every question you may have. This thread was created by someone in your group who felt our museum was of value and I came into it to clarify what I knew from my own first hand experience. I had hoped that I might dispel some of the misunderstanding on the topic.

If these answers do not sit well with you, then ask the moderator the delete them. It is, after all, your group and you may judge the quality of what you read and write. Then issue a public statement much like the foundation did.

It would go something like this: "This Forum terminated the right of Ethos Erlanger to answer questions because his answers as written in response to our questions in the forum and displayed by this forum did not accurately reflect the intention of this groups architect, founder, and me (you). We further didn't think they were good enough for our readers to view and we removed them in the interest of keeping the Forum pure."

Here's my offer to you. Send me a blueprint of your finest architectural work. Then I will render it for you in Second Life. You may come and critique it. Or, we might have the ultimate build-off. You build your version of your own work in Second Life, and we can do a side by side comparison of your work against mine using the same plans. Let your fellow Forum members be the arbiter of quality. My building skills in Second Life are worthy of Wright based on the feedback of the majority of the museum's vistors and you are entitled to your opposing opinion. But do not make me build from photographs and then judge my work based on your blueprints.

Sincerely offered,
Ethos Erlanger


Last edited by Ethos Erlanger on Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Paul Ringstrom



Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Mason City, IA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 11:41 am    Post subject: Re: FLW Foundation out of control Reply with quote

Paul Ringstrom wrote:


..... These people DO NOT deserve our financial support. There are a lot of FLW organizations who are doing positive things that need our contributions. Please support them instead.....




Ethos Erlanger wrote:

Paul,
How much support does SaveWright provide to the FLLWF? If it is a substantial amount then they may be pleased to let you use Mr. Wright's name in your organizations name. Do you have a License Agreement with them? Are you simply sending them a check with no expectation of anything in return?

Do they accept your donations or are you bound by an agreement? Do they provide you any services for those donations.

All of these thing change the equation.

Ethos Erlanger


Ethos,
SaveWright.org is the website that is maintained by the Frank Lloyd Wright Building Conservancy. FLWBC is a separate organization from the FLWFoundation and does not, to my knowledge, provide any financial support to it. I am a dues paying member of both the FLWBC and the FLWFoundation provide them with my donations with no expectations other than that they fulfill their Mission Statements in an fiscally efficient way.

Also, I would like to thank you for contributing your views to this forum. Please do not take the negative comments of a few to represent this entire forum. A complete airing of the background information concerning the FLWFoundation, I believe, is helpful and appropriate to this forum since our interest and the interests of the FLWVM should be the same as those of the FLWFoundation, that is: the education of the public in regards to the importance of FLW's work as it applies to the history of architecture.
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Deke



Joined: 27 Jul 2006
Posts: 692
Location: Los Angeles

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 12:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ethos,

Thanks for appearing in this forum and shedding light on the Virtual Frank Lloyd Wright Museum. I had a chance to visit it before it was closed down and got a big kick out of flying around your Fallingwater. As you stated, there are limitations to whatever program is used to create 3D models in second life, but it seems you used the capabilities to their fullest extent.

I suggest you put your Fallingwater back up on Second Life. If the Foundation send you a nasty letter, explain to them that architectural designs of that era were not granted copyright protection.

I believe what the Foundation opposed was the use of Frank Lloyd Wright's name in the title, and some images of Wright spread around the Museum. They control his likeness, and his name for commercial purposes. So re-build your museum, call it "Organic-land" or something, and just avoid use of Wright's name or likeness.

Deke
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KevinW



Joined: 06 Feb 2005
Posts: 1276

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow...sorry, but I don't think your rantings are helping your cause very much. Good luck with your endeavors.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 18152
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As an aside, I think users of SketchUp will have been surprised to read this, on the previous page:

"it is not possible with models created with Google SketchUp to show the interiors of the buildings"

While I do not indulge in this form of modeling, and have not yet toured Second Life's architectural replicas, I can affirm that SketchUp modelers have provided interior tours of their models. As an alternative to a "crawl" through the model, some makers provide access to "layers" so that viewers can remove roof(s) for instant viewing of interior spaces.

I will let our resident SketchUp artist, Jeff Myers, present his own work, but I treasure these screen shots of his model-in-progress of the Palmer house of Wright:





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Ethos Erlanger



Joined: 24 Dec 2010
Posts: 11

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="SDR"]As an aside, I think users of SketchUp will have been surprised to read this, on the previous page:

"it is not possible with models created with Google SketchUp to show the interiors of the buildings"

I will let our resident SketchUp artist, Jeff Myers, present his own work, but I treasure these screen shots of his model-in-progress of the Palmer house of Wright:

These screen shots are quite impressive. Is this available in a web enabled environment? Can you enter the building and control your own movements? The Google SketchUp models that I have seen are those found via Google Earth and I was unable to enter into the interior of any one of those more notable buildings around the world. I would love to do a virtual tour of this building when it is finished. What is the URL? Or will it not be available to the public?
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 18152
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff might be off today; I should let him fill you in. Here's the last video he posted here, I believe -- not a finished work -- linked on page 43 of the Pauson house thread. It's indicative of the way his models look when viewed in a "tour."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdsgRLusEfs

"Can you enter the building and control your own movements ?" Yes -- when someone sends you the model, you can play with it endlessly. SketchUp downloads for free, for the purposes of viewing, and once you have it in your computer it opens automatically when you wish to view a model.

Personally, I prefer the fully-outlined drawing (as seen in the screen shot); Jeff removes the outlines when he makes a video tour, perhaps because the lines and edges in SketchUp are usually stair-stepped, which can be distracting in a movie. Or is it because they increase the file size ?

S
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 18152
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff's Palmer house video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DChKk1XcD8A
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Paul Ringstrom



Joined: 17 Sep 2005
Posts: 4210
Location: Mason City, IA

PostPosted: Sat Dec 25, 2010 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that the FLWFoundation's hypocrisy can be easily illustrated by these two images below:

This is the original building:


and this is a licensed plastic model of the same building:


As you can easily see they don't look very similar. BUT the FLWFoundation generates INCOME from this scam on the public and it does not generate any income from the FLW Virtual Museum. Frankly, THEIR digital models look a whole lot more similar to the real building than the above plastic model does.


Last edited by Paul Ringstrom on Sun Dec 26, 2010 8:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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DavidC



Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 7125
Location: Oak Ridge, TN

PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another example:

Photo of Fallingwater

Photo of a Foundation-approved Fallingwater model


David
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Jeff Myers



Joined: 22 Feb 2009
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Location: Tulsa

PostPosted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Clean lines make the model appear to be like a photo, as it does when I render the models.
I have been using screen recording my models going me the control of the tour and how I view it in real life.
Thanks to SDR for linking the animations I have made.
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