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Neils House (Minneapolis, MN) is up for sale!
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15924
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for that information.

As there can be no effective means of resisting horizontal movement of the roof at the "open" end, via the glass walls alone, I assume there must be a mighty connection at the ridge, so that the angle of the roof planes remains constant. Curtis Besinger mentions this difficulty in the design of Neils (and by extension Glore and others). Are there construction photos of any of these roofs ?

SDR
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JimM



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1374

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pharding wrote:
When FLW did tall window walls out of wood, like Nells and Glore, typically he would introduce a steel plate in some of the mullions to conceal steel columns in a window wall.


That is what I assumed, but still rather narrow members! Apparently they do the job.
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FTA



Joined: 24 Mar 2005
Posts: 150

PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My recollection being in the house 30 years ago, given a thorough tour by their son who was about my age, that Mr Neils dealt with aluminum and all the windows, frames, mullions, etc. are aluminum - something uncharacteristic but permitted by Wright because of the client's business. The home was - and appears still to be by the photos - fabulous and inviting.
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8406

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 5:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I asked John Geiger about the structure at Neils. He replied:

"Uplift was not a concern those days, particularly in Northern climates.

"As for the Neils structure, as I remember the mullions (supporting members) are steel structural Ts, probably with rigid frame steel beams following the pitch of the roof welded to the Ts at the ceiling, making it a rigid frame taking the thrust, probably spaced at every third unit. Curtis [Besinger] used that technique at the Hagan House from what [Donald] Hoffmann says. Curtis did the working drawings for Glore as well as Grant, which was the first house to use steel Ts as mullions....

"I used rigid frame steel beams at Zimmerman following the contour of the roof to hold up the street side gable, which hangs off the ridge at the carport and the end of the living room; no support there. They were resting on brick walls in that case, and I don't remember how I anchored them; not very well, as I recall, but they were really just part of the wood roof framing which had conventional anchorage."

When John's site becomes activated, he intend to go into greater depth on such subjects.
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dkottum



Joined: 09 Jan 2005
Posts: 400
Location: Battle Lake, MN

PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2007 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very, very interesting Roderick Grant. It is one thing to design these daring structures, and another to make them stand up. Really looking forward to Mr. Geiger's web site.

There was certainly some sink-or-swim learning here, as the Old Man sent these young architects out to remote sites with only partially engineered structural plans. Today we might call this neglect, but they always found a way to pull it off, without disturbing the art.

Doug Kottum, Battle Lake
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8406

PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just got back from a visit with Geiger. He got a complete set of drawings of Neils from Taliesin, which while informative, had been shrunk to 8-1/2 x 11, so were not always easy for my ancient eyes to read. Surprisingly the mullion "T"s are paired "L" shaped aluminum (aluminum doesn't come in "T"s) about 4" deep. The ridge beam is comprised of 6-bys enclosing a 6" x 5/8" flitch plate, achored at the chimney mass and at the opposite end by two pairs of rafters comprised of paired boards with flitch plates. That's it. That's all that holds up the roof. Another thing the drawings show is that FLW did a lot more hands-on work than even Geiger realized. The first design, which is in His hand, is superior to the finished product. The steps from the entrance hall lead up to the living room instead of down, and there is a lower level. The cost of that probably brought about the redesign. The massive prow-shaped terrace started out as a cantilevered balcony of much smaller dimensions. When John gets his site up, this is one of the topics he will be addressing.
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jay



Joined: 02 May 2016
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 1:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some great quality high-def photos here:

http://tours.spacecrafting.com/n-1vzm
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15924
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently not. At least, the site didn't open for me . . .

Roderick, did John get far with his documentation project ?

SDR
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jay



Joined: 02 May 2016
Posts: 63

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well you can see the lower-res photos on Zillow:
https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2801-Burnham-Blvd-Minneapolis-MN-55416/1990791_zpid/
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The house certainly has great street presence. The impression of the living room stepping up from the entry level is maintained, apparently, by the sill line -- even if the floor now steps down . . . ?

SDR
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2292
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A rigid frame!
Didn't we mention this in another thread on Niels - the one in which I said there was International Style influence going on and RG hit the ceiling!
Wow- confirmation of the use of a rigid frame in residential buildings by Wright.
That is huge from my little corner of the world.
...and the rigid frame holds up the flitched rafters on the glass end opposite the masonry mass.
That not's going anywhere - solid.
So that's got to mean welded moment connections, ... no?
"Day -um", as my homies say.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15924
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose. (The phrase "rigid frame" seems a redundancy; of what use would be a flexible frame ?)

SDR
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8406

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did I leave that $3,400,00.00? I know it's somewhere, in a book, possibly. Dang!! I won't be able to buy it if I can't find my money.

I have never seen the bedroom wing interiors. Very interesting. This is close to perfect, from plan to elevation to landscaping to lakeside lot.

I don't know if Geiger got everything about Neils together or not, and U of M seems not to have posted his archive yet, 7 years and counting.
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DRN



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3511
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for linking the pics, Jay! I had never seen more than a couple of exterior photos of the house. Your first link worked fine for my machine.

Are the sleeping loft spaces original? I suspect they may be later insertions owing to some of the details and the scale of the rooms that result. I also noted the perf treatment on the bath door...no other perfs in the house but for that?
Great house. It has a unique vibe.
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peterm



Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 5796
Location: Chicago, Il.---Oskaloosa, Ia.

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2018 2:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another anazing house. There is one thing that has always troubled me, though, and that is the multicolored (precut?) stonework. Others?

The white paint could be softened to a cream. The kitchen’s wonderful, but I’m not sure about the baths (Zillow photos 13 and 16). Windows above the sink with mirror in front: Is that Wright’s design?

And what’s that ladder above the desk in #15?


Last edited by peterm on Thu May 31, 2018 2:41 pm; edited 1 time in total
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