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Suggestions needed for new roof and fascia treatment

 
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 3:05 pm    Post subject: Suggestions needed for new roof and fascia treatment Reply with quote

I have a 1967 Larry Brink house located in region 5 (SE Michigan). The roof structure is 2.75" thick T&G decking running vertical with a 12/12 slope. The exposed finished ceiling on the interior is the T&G decking itself. There is no place for interior insulation. The only insulation in the entire roof is 1" standard issue blue foam board attached to the exterior decking. The shingles are nailed to/through the foam board with no sheathing.

The time has come to redo the roof from scratch. Heat loss though the ceiling is extreme. Ice dam issues are extreme. There also seems to be considerable condensation happening in the roof.

The current plan is this:

- Strip off all roofing and insulation down to the T&G decking
- Add peel and stick air barrier directly to the T&G decking
- Add perimeter of 2x4's to match height of the following insulation
- Add two layers of 2" polyiso insulation board with staggered and taped seams
- Add 1/2" sheathing, then peel and stick at eaves, then synthetic underlayment, then shingles

From my research the peel and stick on the T&G is mandatory to prevent condensation in the roof since I do not have a drywall ceiling to prevent the moist air from reaching the roof. This combined with R20 exterior insulation should all but limited condensation issues. Does this sound correct?

The upper windows in the picture limit how much insulation can be added to the decking. 4" is pushing it since the sill is only 3.5" off the deck. I feel this can be done though with some tapering and good flashing without it being too noticeable?

The question comes down the eaves and the fascia. There is no overhang at all now. Water off the roof washes over the front and back windows. I would really like to extend the eaves if possible to prevent this. I think just a couple inches would help matters. Obviously the look of the house is going to change with this new roof but there is no way around that at this point. My thought is attaching cut down 2x6's on the flat to the 2x4's which were run along the roof perimeter. This would get me 1.5" extension. I could then attach a fascia board to this for .75" more or 2.25" total. The fascia board would overlap the siding slightly? I would then have a standard 2" black metal drip edge over the fascia which would help keep the the look it has now. Does this make sense?

Picture:
https://ibb.co/Drs0MYw

Very open to ideas on the roofing and finishing plan! I need to get this work scheduled ASAP before winter starts here.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17887
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ho-ho ! We've looked at your house before, and studied the same problem with it that you're having. Are you a new owner ? What did we say last time ?

I love this house. We even saw the architect's perspective view(s) of the house, and some interior photos. How is everything else going ...

S
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Ho-ho ! We've looked at your house before, and studied the same problem with it that you're having. Are you a new owner ? What did we say last time ?

I love this house. We even saw the architect's perspective view(s) of the house, and some interior photos. How is everything else going ...

S


Same owner, just finally getting to the roof. I've been dreading what this will uncover but I can't take another winter the way it is now. I guess it is down to the details at this point since I need to sign the contract very soon to make it in this season.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17887
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, it still sounds like a likely solution, not that I can verify the details---and the thoughts about how to handle the fascia seems like new matter, this time ?

It can take a while to settle on a very consequential decision, can't it.

I feel that I never got an answer to the question, "Couldn't all the new material (insulation and barriers) be added to the inside of the roof plane ?" Or did I just not like the answer ...

I suppose I'm thinking about occupying the cells between rafters, ending with interior sheathing, and [shudder] "rafters" added as trim.

Call it "Taliesin inspired" ? The idea, of course, is to replicate or echo the original appearance of the interior---not an altogether disreputable motive ?

S
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Well, it still sounds like a likely solution, not that I can verify the details---and the thoughts about how to handle the fascia seems like new matter, this time ?

It can take a while to settle on a very consequential decision, can't it.

I feel that I never got an answer to the question, "Couldn't all the new material (insulation and barriers) be added to the inside of the roof plane ?" Or did I just not like the answer ...

I suppose I'm thinking about occupying the cells between rafters, ending with interior sheathing, and [shudder] "rafters" added as trim.

Call it "Taliesin inspired" ? The idea, of course, is to replicate or echo the original appearance of the interior---not an altogether disreputable motive ?

S


That would be an enormous undertaking to do anything on the inside. It has a complex ceiling. To scab onto that would not look right. Also, the house has no rafters at all. The ceiling (deck) is T&G run vertically end to end.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17887
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh--I'd forgotten that. The ceiling boards are perpendicular to the ridge, not parallel to it ?

I suppose gravity is working with you, on the outside ...

Kindly submit detail sections at all conditions, especially the proposed eaves and fascia. Smile

S
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Oh--I'd forgotten that. The ceiling boards are perpendicular to the ridge, not parallel to it ?

I suppose gravity is working with you, on the outside ...

Kindly submit detail sections at all conditions, especially the proposed eaves and fascia. Smile

S


Correct, running perpendicular, clear span. There are 8 exposed trusses, which are drywalled, acting almost like compartments for each of the clerestory windows. The uppermost peak of the interior ceiling is also drywalled. Then there is a triangle window within inches of the interior T&G ceiling. Basically impossible to do anything inside without major rebuild.

I'm not an architect so the only real detail I can provide on the fascia and eaves is up above. Ideally it would be great to remove all the siding and run new siding right up to the roof line as it is today. Again, not being realistic though. Looking for the the best reasonable solution.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17887
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Tue Sep 03, 2019 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might do what's pragmatic for now while providing the conditions for some later refinement, such as the replacement of the siding---by you or by some future owner ?

S
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yellowcat



Joined: 22 Apr 2016
Posts: 18
Location: Hagerstown, MD

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortrex, I believe one of the proposed insulation layers should be EPS foam that will work with the Polyiso layer. There are some long scientific reasons for this, but I think it comes down to thermal bridging and the different densities will help prevent this. The polyiso should be closest to your finished ceiling.

If you have a good metal roofing supplier in your area, they could custom make some trim profiles that should eliminate the problems at the eaves, perhaps without having to add more wood framing. I would try to find a supplier that could make 24 gauge painted steel trim or copper if it is within your budget.

From your attached picture, the bottom of the upper windows will be the major problem. But, again I think some custom metal trim could be the easiest solution. That and a good articulating man lift!
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some pictures of what I see as the options. Keep in mind it is not drawn to scale and I'm not an architect. All pictures show two 2x4's nailed to the deck which are there to protect the perimeter of the foam.

Option #1 - Custom bent black metal flashing which would be 3.5" to 4.5" tall, depending on how much foam goes on.
https://ibb.co/CHfG3YF

Option #2 - Rough cedar fascia board which would be stained the color of the house and a smaller black drip edge.
https://ibb.co/hgRXjyj

Option #3 - Additional 2x4 attached to the face of the roof perimeter to further extend the eave, with rough cedar fascia board stained the color of the house, smaller black drip edge.
https://ibb.co/QmtVFxF

After looking at these options roughly drawn out it seems to me #3 is a no go since would visually cover too much of the siding above the long lower window in front?

The roofer is suggesting #1. This is most like I have now (siding extends directly to drip edge) but it would be a thicker black border around the house.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 11:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yellowcat wrote:
Vortrex, I believe one of the proposed insulation layers should be EPS foam that will work with the Polyiso layer. There are some long scientific reasons for this, but I think it comes down to thermal bridging and the different densities will help prevent this. The polyiso should be closest to your finished ceiling.

If you have a good metal roofing supplier in your area, they could custom make some trim profiles that should eliminate the problems at the eaves, perhaps without having to add more wood framing. I would try to find a supplier that could make 24 gauge painted steel trim or copper if it is within your budget.

From your attached picture, the bottom of the upper windows will be the major problem. But, again I think some custom metal trim could be the easiest solution. That and a good articulating man lift!


I did read some about the EPS and polyiso combination before. Didn't quite understand it all. The roofer is proposing all polyiso. I hate to direct him too much at this point and have him walk away. It's been difficult finding anyone willing to take on this job and his company does have very good reviews.

One of the roofers I had out proposed the custom bent thicker steel to handle the eave extension. They ended up not wanting to take the job. I will ask the new roofer about this.

I climbed up to those windows to get the measurement, not easy standing on a roof like this! This roofer doesn't seem phased at all about this job, which I hope is a good sign?
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 9342

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

#1, but with the drip kerf at the midpoint, a board at the edge of the lower level insulation, set back 1".
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roderick Grant wrote:
#1, but with the drip kerf at the midpoint, a board at the edge of the lower level insulation, set back 1".


Would I want the set back 1" trim board to overhang the fluted siding or is a butt joint there OK?

One thing I am afraid of is the top of the siding, which is covered now by the current drip flashing, is not all cut evenly and it's likely not stained. If that is all going to be exposed now by raising the roof there will be some work needed to fix all that.
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yellowcat



Joined: 22 Apr 2016
Posts: 18
Location: Hagerstown, MD

PostPosted: Wed Sep 04, 2019 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having a set back at the lower level of insulation would make an interesting shadow line. Perhaps without a lot of extra effort by your roofing company.

I think it could be buttoned up tight by using two, or maybe three different metal edge profiles without using the exposed cedar trim. The machines used for fabricating custom shapes can do very precise bends if you know the exact angle or pitch required. The standard 24 gauge drip edge used for metal roofing has a 1- 1/2" overhang edge (past the drip leg). I believe this is quite a bit more than the typical drip edge used for shingles. These are fabricated to match your roofs' pitch, so the drip leg is vertical. I'm sure your roofer has seen and solved much worse problems!
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 67
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Thu Sep 05, 2019 8:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Should the deck blocking be cut on an angle to form a vertical face such as in the following drawing?

https://ibb.co/vZ8zZyq

I guess most roofs are like this, but it does make the face even taller and also eliminates any overhang, which I could use.
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