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Taliesin (North) plans compared
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15112
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll jump in with illustrations to Jim's long post. First, the aerial view he mentioned. (All the following can be found in Taschen II, pp 470-82. For some reason the images appear here even larger than intended . . .)



1403.22


The plan that goes with it, with the downhill studio and uphill apprentice rooms.


1403.018


Detail of that plan, and another plan drawing.



1403.018



1403.015

all images © 2009 by TASCHEN GmbH and by the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation


Last edited by SDR on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:55 pm; edited 3 times in total
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do not see anywhere a stair that would have led up to the aerie -- a stair with winders that appears in the red-roof plan, a stair that apparently lands between the dining table and the entrance door.


Here's that collage Jim mentioned. Sorry the image is not sharp. If anyone wants to see the section drawings enlarged, I can provide them: they're published at full-page size in Taschen.




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SDR



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had not appreciated that Mr Wright had his bedroom where the guest room is today, and that he removed himself (and gave Mrs Wright her own bedroom) in later versions of the house.

The two house plans I display above are radically different from each other: in one a gallery bisects the bedroom wing, aligned I guess with a distant chapel ?

Could this plan have occurred after Mamah's death, the previous one before the fire ? I think Jim M has done the most research on this house, so I defer to him. I'm including T numbers on these image posts.

SDR
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JimM



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The first plan (.018) is T1, the next (.015) is T2.... you can see that until the fire Wright spent comparatively an inordinate amount of time with the studio/hill spaces and was (understandably) content with the residence.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hated to step on the excellent posts and material on the previous page. I intended to show the "crows nest" photo that James displayed; here it is at
larger size. I guess we have to conclude that the construction provided venting to the kitchen -- and little else besides an excellent "hood ornament" to the house ?


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JChoate



Joined: 04 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Am I missing something?
I'm seeing plan 1403.018 identified by Pfeiffer as Taliesin II (in Taschen). Same goes for 1403.015 and the aerial perspective 1403.22.

"hood ornament" ... that's a good one.
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JimM



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JChoate wrote:
Jim,
It sounds like you know what you talking about. Because if that stone in both photos it makes sense to me that both views are T3.
On page one of this thread we got onto thinking it was T2. Made some sense -- the treatment of the ceiling trim resembled that of the T2 living room. But, the identical stone wall argued that it was of the same era as the later T3 photo.
One discrepancy that remains is the location of the closets. The plan marked as T2 shows closets inside the room, whereas T3 shows no closets.
The older bedroom photo shows closets to the left of the bed, matching the T2 plan... more confusion.



Regarding the aerial perspective, If I understand you correctly you're saying that if was of T1, even though it appears in Taschen in the section about T2.


That is interesting about the closets, but the only conclusion could be that he simply left them in TIII... We know plans are not definitive, and the only real points of reference are the major changes between T1 & T2, and then between T2 & T3.

The residence plan in the perspective is T1, he just went crazy with intentions for the rest of the complex. Perhaps to overstate those intentions in the publication, but definitely with an eye on greater expansion than was already underway with the studio as early as 1912.
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JimM



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JChoate wrote:
Dang, I'm confused. Some of the lines between T1, 2, & 3 are blurry to me.

Regarding the rooftop elements:
First, I'm not aware that those rooftop elements existed in T1. I've never seen them in associated drawings or photos showing T1. Do you know anything to the contrary? My assumption is that they were creatures of T2. But they appear on the bird's eye view. (It is included in Taschen's coverage of T2.)

The plan you asked about was published in Taschen as T2. It's associated with the house roof & upper level plan of the hilltop building. It looks like it would accommodate a bedroom:

So, since that room was never realized, I take it everything up there is just an attic dormer? No inhabitable space?
What are those decorative doo dads?


I missed that in Taschen...

The "hood ornaments" are decorative doo-dads and can be seen in most photos of T1 & T2. In fact there are photo's from T2 where the one above the kitchen appears to have turned into a dinner bell!

I should have clarified that original construction photos near the completion of T1 do not show the pinwheeled roofs or doo-dads. They were added between 1912 and 1914. Immediate studio changes and windows to the hill tower were added at some point after the fact as well.

Discerning T1 itself is a real challenge. The Taylor Wooley construction photos, prominent in Ron McCrea's book, and Randolph Henning's book of Taliesin postcards are invaluable.
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SDR



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 9:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I see a little wind-rag on one of the hoodoos in the photo above ?

Those little knobby masts remind me of the cubes decorating certain table lamp bases, or the struts rising from interior beams at the Sturges house. Of course, these early ones are more elaborate: each cube is made up eight smaller cubes . . .

I could have sworn I saw a photo of these constructions taken from the rooftop, in the last couple of days. Can I find it ? No.

SDR
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SpringGreen



Joined: 31 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just spent some time trying to read the last few days of your posts (I don't check on the weekends - I spend enough time thinking about Taliesin during the week).

JimM has got a lot of things correct.

I don't know what to tell you about the door on the east wall, although I agree with JimM: the drawing you were looking at was TI. The way you can tell in that birds eye that you're seeing Taliesin I is that the first floor in the living quarters has stucco instead of stone (he's going to make it stone in Taliesin II - it wasn't all stone, but you can see it's more stone in Frank Lloyd Wright: Collected Writings, v. 2, p. 242).

As for the closets in (today's) Guest Bedroom, they were in Taliesin I & II & early Taliesin III. I don't know when they were removed (there was a closet put on the southern part of the room in FLW's lifetime), but if you were to go next to the room's bed & look on the floor, you'd see the shadow of the closets, with wood patched in.

SDR, regarding the question you asked JChoate on the 24th:
Quote:
What am I seeing: glass or mirror scribed to the bottom step ?
I think it's a mirror, but I haven't looked up that way in years because people are living there every summer. And I'd like to ask JChoate how he got those photos. That door is normally closed & you don't have a lot of time on tours to even look at the door when it's closed (which it always is during the day). Unless you're a friend with a student. We were all reprimanded for crossing any lines between private space & public tour space. And if one of our guides let you take those photos, I'll grab them by the ear.

As for the "Crow's Nest", as far as we can figure out, it provided, as SDR theorized, venting for the kitchen.

Oh, & I want to reiterate, SDR, that as far as we know, the chimney in the Taliesin II floor plan didn't exist. It never appeared in Taliesin II photographs & the chimney mass doesn't show evidence of a massive fire.

And, SDR, as for your last question, about seeing the "doodads" on the roof at Taliesin [II]: you might have seen that photograph in Neil Levine's essay in Wright Studies, v. 1, p. 16, fig. 12. That's the only place off hand that I know of.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, SpringGreen -- I was looking at the wrong end of the book ! I guess we'll never get closer to those roof dealies than in this photo. It's
interesting to find that the lower of the two is mounted not on the ridge but a little downslope -- visible here and in the larger photo above.

(In re-roofing the Mathews residence last year Bill Schwarz made sure to include Wright's hip caps, which reduce the prominence of that feature
when observing a building from the ground, compared to the standard detail. Drawings of that hip treatment are found on the Mathews drawings
as well as on other Usonian CDs. Photos of Taliesin were persuasive and informative . . .)





I erred in citing Taschen II as the source of the Taliesin I image on the previous page; they, along with the "red roof" drawing posted by James,
are found starting on page 470 of Taschen I. This is the Taliesin II entry; why Taliesin I drawings are published under this heading is a mystery to me.
The Taliesin (I) section begins in the same volume at page 396; it includes this wonderfully "rustic" interior photo:





There is a clear splice left of center, and something in the lower right foreground has been disguised. An evocative photo in any event. The photographer is "unknown."


SDR
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR's "hood ornament" photo dated 1912 is slightly different from the 1912 image from the same angle in "Wright Studies, Taliesin 1911-1914," page 128. In the Menocal photo, there is no power line, the roof of the lower ornament is shorter, the notched do-dads are not present and there is a tall, cross-shaped emanation atop the higher hood. On another 1912 photo, page 130, looking up toward the loggia, the notched thingy on the lower hood is much taller. If all these images are actually from the same year, changes must have been made at a rapid pace.

The guest room photo, bottom page 3, shows an odd configuration for the bed. Actually, the original bed was designed to have one side adjacent to the plastered base of the stone wall. The photo shows that bed protruding from a double bed mattress placed cross-wise on the built-in. The closets are still intact, so I suspect they were removed when that original bed was replaced by what is in there now?

Who knows what the actual dates are any of this happened. It's why I gave up on dates decades ago.
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Roderick Grant



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Rustic" is a good adjective to define Taliesin I. After all the extravagantly detailed and art-glazing of the Prairie Era, FLW seemed to go to some sort of a new beginning, designing his home in a rough fashion hard to find in his earlier work. That rough, rustic look is what makes Taliesin I so magical, and the softening of it by Taliesin III is what may cause some to disparage the later evolution of the place by comparison.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Roderick. Here are relevant portions of the two additional photos from "Wright Studies." Note the use of "dovecote" in the caption -- yet another possible function of part of this roof-top construction.
Pigeons by any name make a mess of roofs; a romantic notion but an impractical one ?







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JimM



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PostPosted: Mon Jan 29, 2018 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Stephen, the spliced T1 photo was originally a triptych of three pictures taken by Taylor Wooley in 1911, the third having an obvious exposure issue.
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