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Taliesin (North) plans compared
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim sends the sketch he found of the window, an irregular trapezoid with two diagonal muntins, perhaps ?


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JimM



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roderick Grant wrote:
That's correct, SDR. It is the green arrow that points to what seems natural to me to be a door rather than a window. A clear image of the Stoller photograph would help, though not necessarily, prove the point. There is also the question of what happened to the exposed stone in the guest room where the Dutch door was located; it is now plaster/sheetrock. When did that happen?


It appears there never was stone at the Dutch door opening until later, and only on the living room side. Plaster remains there today. You can tell the stone work next to that location today is identical in photos since the 20's. No masonry appeared until TIII, and did not extend past the Dutch door (on the living room side) until the alcove French doors were pushed out again for the last time and finally removed when the entire alcove was enclosed.

Regarding the phantom door next to the fireplace...of interest is a plan in Mono 10 showing what appears to be a solid line (wall? window? but not masonry) where French doors were originally located from the guest room in both TI & TII, and an ambiguous opening next to the fireplace. It's conceivable at some point the French doors were closed off (with or without glazing) leaving an egress next to the fireplace prior to the Dutch door. The plan is inconclusive, but it could being showing a door before the window replaced it, Spring Green's comment of no such evidence notwithstanding. The Dutch door would have replaced it. A door next to the fireplace does not appear to make sense unless Wright added it to screen the guest room from that part of the terrace. Unlikely, since he ended up putting in a Dutch door anyway.

My conclusion is simply that the Dutch door was added in the shortened space when the dining area French doors were pushed out the first time, and the guest room masonry accordingly. For some reason, Wright used a solid Dutch door (more privacy?) which may have made that corner dark, hence the window next to the fireplace. The result was no access to the terrace from the guest room, as seen on the TIII plan. If correct, that would be the case until the guest/Blue Loggia terrace was added in the 50's with those huge doors and all that light.... so plaster over that other window!

Also, the TIII plan clearly shows the window with cabinets below. It can be assumed to be the window since all other doors on the plan are delineated. The Dutch door would have been removed when the living room alcove was extended a second time in 1943.
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Roderick Grant



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just entered a long post identifying all 18 of the Taliesin drawings in Mono 10 (149-166). When I submitted it, it was gone, and I had been logged out. So I am not going to go through all that again. I shall state that plate 149, which is a small scale drawing of the entire structure done before the enclosure of the terrace to create the living room alcove indicates that the NE guest room corner had, or was intended to have, all glass from the major jog in the stone wall around the corner to the fireplace. Whether or not that was ever built, it was planned.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, and I'm very sorry the time-out bug hit you again. I've learned the hard way, when I've been a long time with a post, to record (copy) it (turn blue with mouse button; hit Apple+C) before attempting to post, so that I can paste (Apple+V) it back into the box if it disappears.

So, Plate 149 might look like the Tal II plan posted on the previous page, which came from Storrer p 184, S.182 ?

SDR
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm willing to bet that the time-out clock can be set anywhere the administrator wishes to put it. And I see no reason not to extend it to, say, an hour.
Don't we have the impression that it actually got shorter, lately ? Anyway, something to go on the wish list for improved site functionality. . .

SDR
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JChoate



Joined: 04 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here are some of the drawings in Mono 10 about which Roderick wrote.
It's a larger drawings but I've zoomed in on the house portion where you can see the corner of the Guest room that is glazed.
(Also, notice what a hot mess is Wright's own bedroom design. Ironically, the designer of hundreds of innovative buildings for others couldn't decide what the heck to do for his own bedroom.)


And here's a cross section showing the door in the place we've seen it, although here it's not a Dutch door.


In contradiction, there's another partial plan drawing at a larger scale, It's a graphite swarm of scribbles, showing Wright was in the process of exploring ideas and getting them quickly on paper. In the vicinity of the Guest Room we see the corner in question now rendered solid, although within the poche' of the mass of the wall is a line that could've represented glazing prior to being colored in.

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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ha. In the last plan, the wall seems to jog to the right merely to provide for the little window. I suppose it's not as simple as that . . .though that chimney (or its foundation) was a given if it survived the second fire, as it appears in that location on the Tal II plan we have.

The section drawing astounds me by showing not one but two sub-levels. Will wonders never cease. Also, I see the stepped concrete slab which carries the large hearth-stones.

Storrer's Taliesin II plan, reposted earlier on the previous page, exhibits the most guest-room glazing of all the plans. Of course, we can't be sure it was ever built that way -- a caution relevant to virtually all the plans we've seen so far ?

SDR
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JChoate



Joined: 04 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes. Regarding this corner of the Guest Room, we've been way around the block (a wonderful journey) but I think we're to the point where we have to conclude that the stone wall & door had to exist in Taliesin II and the masonry had to survive the 2nd fire (undamaged & unmarked). And the T2 plan with windows on the corner wasn't built that way.
Otherwise, how could these two photos exist -- unless what we've been assuming is a T2 photo was actually early T3 , later remodeled (???).


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JChoate



Joined: 04 Feb 2016
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just getting around to looking at Taschen for Taliesin 2.
The design drawings do not show the stone walls emerging thru the roof in the vicinity of the area we're studying, which is consistent with the plan showing the glass doors/windows in the corner of the Guest Room.

But, there is that interior photo looking at the dining area. In that photo we can see thru the glass of a door standing open. Thru that glass we see a wicker chair, then beyond the chair is obviously more glass windows/doors. We see a mullion between at least two units so that would suggest that the floor plan drawings are valid.





Here's the photo showing the glass doors beyond the wicker chair:

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JChoate



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On another tangent, I've wondered what was this upper level room in T2. It appears in exterior photos. I presume it might've been a fancy guest room. It has various little room/compartments with surrounding windows that would've had spectacular views. It looks like it has a hexagonal hearth emerging from a thin fireplace. What a cool crow's nest that would've been. I've never heard or read anything about it specifically.
Whatever it was it wasn't replicated in T3.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wonderful. But the guest-room chimney appears only in plan, and not on the aerial view of the roof. Hmm . . . Guess its complex interruption of roof hips and valleys wouldn't look so great in that birds-eye drawing ?

In fact, an elegant resolution of that area of roof never did appear, did it . . .

The crows-nest pinwheel plan is exquisite: the little roof monitor seen in photos comes to fruition here, never actually to be realized except on paper and in the architect's imagination.

SDR
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JimM



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, the two guest room photos are TIII. Masonry appeared for the first time after the 1925 fire when the major alteration of height and stone massing was introduced in the living room-there'd be no evidence of fire on non-existent masonry. There is no evidence of masonry in photos of the TII dining area. TII was a one story structure and stone only introduced to the bedroom is just as unlikely as would be covering it up with cabinetry and the long Japanese screen in the dining area. Also, no graphic differentiation between masonry and framed walls occurs on plans for TII. The TII residence was framed generally along the lines of TI and changes after 1914 primarily addressed the lengthening of Taliesin past the porte cocheres. At some point soon after Wright relocated his bedroom to that end. The site of the fire became the first loggia, and Wright reportedly did so allowing a view toward Mamah's resting place at the chapel.

The enlarged Mono 10 plan indicates what could either be a solid wall intending only the obvious lost window next to the fireplace, or Wright nonchalantly sketching a door and mullion swinging over it. I believe he was not sure if he wanted access to the terrace at all, which ended up being the case after the alcove doors were pushed out the last time. He obviously decided on access via the Dutch door which is all that would fit when the alcove was pushed out the first time.

Again (again), we know there was French doors in the same location in both TI & TII which allowed the wicker chairs to be dragged onto the terrace.

The phases do not really stop or start, but what we do know is the 1925 window was there, a Dutch door replaced French doors when the dining area was pushed out, and heightening the living room resulted in masonry structurally and aesthetically upward, and then outward accompanying the French doors on their two journeys extending the alcove.

The ink on linen birds-eye view is definitely TI pre 1914 but does include possible alterations concerning the studio wing and hill tower complex. The rest of that rendering shows a very large new studio down slope of the original, and a "T" addition for draftsman to the hill tower wing. Published 1913 in Western Architect, Wright failed to mention they did not exist probably intending to convey a very large and busy practice. Included were Fuhrmann photos pasted on elevations and sections to give credence, but of course no photos were shown of the hill garden addition and new studio. It does presage eventual growth, although later he thought better of having apprentices occupy the hill garden.
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JChoate



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jim,
It sounds like you know what you talking about. Because if that stone in both photos it makes sense to me that both views are T3.
On page one of this thread we got onto thinking it was T2. Made some sense -- the treatment of the ceiling trim resembled that of the T2 living room. But, the identical stone wall argued that it was of the same era as the later T3 photo.
One discrepancy that remains is the location of the closets. The plan marked as T2 shows closets inside the room, whereas T3 shows no closets.
The older bedroom photo shows closets to the left of the bed, matching the T2 plan... more confusion.



Regarding the aerial perspective, If I understand you correctly you're saying that if was of T1, even though it appears in Taschen in the section about T2.


Last edited by JChoate on Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:02 pm; edited 2 times in total
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JimM



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JChoate wrote:
On another tangent, I've wondered what was this upper level room in T2. It appears in exterior photos. I presume it might've been a fancy guest room. It has various little room/compartments with surrounding windows that would've had spectacular views. It looks like it has a hexagonal hearth emerging from a thin fireplace. What a cool crow's nest that would've been. I've never heard or read anything about it specifically.
Whatever it was it wasn't replicated in T3.


I've never seen this, where did you find it? The roof configuration reflects TII, but it was never built....at least as far as I know! Please post any photos documenting it. However, it was a consideration connecting two existing roof elements. The top of the pinwheel is in the same location as window/vents above the kitchen. Note that the void is completely walled off from the main area, so that function was still desired. The lower "pin" extended from the living room fireplace with a monitor element atop. I believe there was no functioning space below this roof section and it only extended to support the monitor. Interior photos of both TI & TII do not indicate any penetration through the roof there, but I suppose it's possible Wright added something vertical prior to TIII....

Both as built are clearly seen in exterior photos of both TI & TII. This would have been a wonderful addition, and especially referencing the hill tower roof configuration. Taliesin itself pinwheels around the hill from the hill tower until resolving at the porte cochere and entry drive.
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JChoate



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PostPosted: Sun Jan 28, 2018 6:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang, I'm confused. Some of the lines between T1, 2, & 3 are blurry to me.

Regarding the rooftop elements:
First, I'm not aware that those rooftop elements existed in T1. I've never seen them in associated drawings or photos showing T1. Do you know anything to the contrary? My assumption is that they were creatures of T2. But they appear on the bird's eye view. (It is included in Taschen's coverage of T2.)

The plan you asked about was published in Taschen as T2. It's associated with the house roof & upper level plan of the hilltop building. It looks like it would accommodate a bedroom:



So, since that room was never realized, I take it everything up there is just an attic dormer? No inhabitable space?
What are those decorative doo dads?

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