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Roofing/insulation for apprentice house
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Can't tell for sure, but from pictures it looks like that soffit is typical through house except for garage.


The ice dams occur at every inch of the living space, front and rear. The garage has no issues at all. There are portions of the interior that do not have the soffit and it still dams the same.

That long front window is another big issue to contend with this spring. I've uncovered the entire thing by removing all the drywall on the inside. Very interesting to say the least. This 32' window is only mounted to the butt end of the 3/4" redwood siding! The framing, or lack thereof, for the cantilever is also strange. There are no joists at all. It's one big sandwich of 3/4" plywood that is bolted together with 2x on the flat to create a 1.5" void for insulation.

Previous owners have apparently tried to fix the issues here by adding 4x4 posts to support the cantilever, attached 2" rigid foam on the exposed bottom side, and added additional flashing/caulk to the top of the window. The entire thing will be removed in the spring, framed with joists, window replaced and attached to the framing, spray foamed, and new siding. The window will be recessed behind the siding instead of it protruding past the waterfall coming off the roof.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So the front window cantilever was not built according to Section A which calls for 2X6's bolted on the ends to the top of the masnory wall.
I might have tried to support that cantilevered sill with hanger rods from the roof structure.

Brink was experimenting with this house.

So garage space is only unheated space I assume.
Everyhwere else the snow melts from the top and freezes at the perimeter.
So venting will probably be necessary and most simple solution.

Have you said in this thread that you know what the roof structure is?
From what I can glean there are no rafters and there is 3" of deck spanning top to bottom with butt joints visible from the inside.
Is that right - roof structure is mystery?
Leaving possible speculation the deck is a screwed together laminate of sorts, formed on the ground and craned into place?
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
So the front window cantilever was not built according to Section A which calls for 2X6's bolted on the ends to the top of the masnory wall.
I might have tried to support that cantilevered sill with hanger rods from the roof structure.

Brink was experimenting with this house.

So garage space is only unheated space I assume.
Everyhwere else the snow melts from the top and freezes at the perimeter.
So venting will probably be necessary and most simple solution.

Have you said in this thread that you know what the roof structure is?
From what I can glean there are no rafters and there is 3" of deck spanning top to bottom with butt joints visible from the inside.
Is that right - roof structure is mystery?
Leaving possible speculation the deck is a screwed together laminate of sorts, formed on the ground and craned into place?


Yes, garage is not heated and has traditional framing and insulation. The roof is still a bit of a mystery in that I do not know if the finished T&G exposed on the inside is the actual 3" decking or not. It does not look like it to me but I could be wrong. However, nowhere in any of the pictures does it call out the finish material for the ceiling, which hints to the decking being it.

That's correct, it's not built with any joists as called out in section A. Here is the detail picture for the window area. This is accurate to how it is built.

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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Given the technical issues you've got to solve I don't think you are obliged to hold the original appearance sacroscant.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
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Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's an example. Fairly minor in this photo because I had already raked the roof and removed the dam that was formed the day before. This is about 4 or 5 inches thick.

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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's incredible.
So from the livingroom you look through the icicles.
Can't help but wonder if Brink actually designed for this.
One wouldn't think so but then one wonders what DID he think would occur?
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 18171
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The slot window is a most interesting feature. It appears that it aligns with the heads of those sitting at the dining table, and gives those standing in the living room a view of the street as well -- though the difference in floor height between the two spaces is only two risers.

How does that window feel, when inside the house ? What part does the depth of the "sill" play, in that perception ?

SDR
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never thought of all this in any concentrated way in relation to the houses of Wright.
Broad eaves and overhangs would seem ideal for the creation of ice dams:
frozen eaves, while snow melts off the roof over the heated spaces, runs down and freezes over the eaves.
the go to example would be Taliesin I imagine.
Wright called it a house of the North.
He took pictures of it with large romantic icicles.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, he did.




Nice train of thought.

But let's not get carried away; anything of Wright in this house is pretty well sublimated. The younger architect has gone his own way, applying lessons learned from a broader spectrum of twentieth-century designers.

One thing very evident here: a wish to respect the context, rather than opposing it. The Brink house is situated in a modernist enclave, with pitched-roof houses virtually universal; ironically, a single flat-roofed two-story is across the street. (The pitch of the Brink house roofs recalls Wright's very atypical Moore residence, for what that's worth.) It occupies a generous corner lot; across the through avenue is an older Dutch Colonial residence.

The house owes something to the Harvard school, to my way of thinking: gray-painted or stained vertical wood siding, simplified flat trim painted white, set on a visible brick base, the composition suggesting nothing so much as an East Coast salt-box. The cantilevered parts of the "upper story" might have echoes in the colonial-era garrison type, while their exaggeration is typical of mid-century formal expression.

The continuation of the brick into the house as a floor material could be a Usonian reference; I think of it, in light of the whole, as deriving from the Harvard school and its Connecticut or Long Island tribes . . .

SDR
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 18171
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Brink house does remind one, perhaps, of Wright's Neils house -- a bit.

http://www.minnpost.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_detail/flw-house-2_main.jpg

Both houses show the street a closed face, private and even a bit forbidding -- though exciting, to me. . .






The back of the house, and its nearest neighbor. The Dutch Colonial is across the street, behind the camera:





Not far away, a different sort of Harvard GSD descendant:



Google street views dated Sept 2014

SDR
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
That's incredible.
So from the livingroom you look through the icicles.
Can't help but wonder if Brink actually designed for this.
One wouldn't think so but then one wonders what DID he think would occur?


If left untouched, the front and rear of the house will become completely encased in ice. In the front it will be a solid sheet of ice from roof to the ground. The rear is higher so that does not happen, but since there is no overhang the siding and windows are covered in ice.

It's hard to imagine what the thought was back then. No insulation in the roof, in MI, seems not worth any aesthetic gain it may provide.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
The slot window is a most interesting feature. It appears that it aligns with the heads of those sitting at the dining table, and gives those standing in the living room a view of the street as well -- though the difference in floor height between the two spaces is only two risers.

How does that window feel, when inside the house ? What part does the depth of the "sill" play, in that perception ?

SDR


Yes, that's exactly correct on the view from DR and LR. Also, from the outside you can't look in the slot widow and see the upstairs because of the angle and the cabinets which run along the edge of the 2nd floor. There's a fair amount of glass in this house but lots of privacy.

It's like you're looking at a panoramic picture of the street from the bridge of a ship.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 68
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Funny how Google came through when the windows were being installed on the rear and freshly milled siding going up. The front yard also has a dirt patch where two large dead pines were removed. The two trees next to the driveway have also been removed before the new driveway went in.

There are a small handful of interesting houses in this neighborhood. A pair of twins side by side a few houses down. One with the original owner still in it and another that just sold this summer.

https://www.redfin.com/MI/Ann-Arbor/352-Hilldale-Dr-48105/home/99306098
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2763
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never would have taken the Brink house for the work of a Wright apprentice.
I would think the school of architecture in Ann Arbor would have had a large influence in this area too.

I like the exterior of the Brink House, but this ice phenomena is nuts.

Being from the south I don't deal with ice dams much.
This thread has raised the issue for me in relation to Wright's work.
That picture of Taliesin North (as it's captioned) is so seductive.
How many years have I seen that shot and not thought of ice dams and heat loss, but only of the sublime.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
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Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That last house I showed has a twin. With first-floor windows placed so low in them, do you suppose the floor is sub-surface, like yours ?

Those look like they could be the work of Carl Koch, in New England, or Charles Goodman, at Hollin Hills in Alexandria, VA.

Larry Brink would have been so pleased with himself, when he found he could have brick wainscote in his living room, and a sub-surface floor, all at the same time -- a wooden vessel perched upon a hollow brick-masonry plinth, the seam between the two expressed as a slot, like the waist-band of a Pontiac Fiero or a Renault Fuego . . .

And he gives you a bit of "compression and release" at the entry, whose porch overhead is all of 6'-10", according to the section on page 2. Did the slatted exterior bench "by owner" get built ? I'm very fond of the front door, which also has precedent in Europe.

SDR
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