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Roofing/insulation for apprentice house
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Well, the drawings call for a 3" T&G deck and you found something thinner, which I'm guessing is the cedar ceiling nailed to the underside of the deck. It will be interesting to find out what's there, when the time comes.

I recalled from the previous discussion that the wood floor in the dining room filled in the original condition, which I remembered as a recess. There's concrete there ? Is it recessed at all -- or did the wood floor sit atop the finished floor plane ? I see the guest room has an exposed concrete floor.

Publication I'm thinking of would have occurred when the house was new . . .

SDR


I see what you mean now. There is a 1" recess for the dining room. That originally had carpet and is going back to that. The carpet will essentially meet flush with the brick perimeter. The guest room is slab, originally carpet, but will be something else. It's used as an office now with rolling chairs. The wood is gone from there now also.

Actually, the entire living room is sunken by two courses of brick. The previous owners built a platform to level it out when the wood floors went in, which you can see in the realtor pictures. All of that is gone now and will also be going back to carpet as original.

I messaged someone on this board 4 years ago who had acquired much of Larry's documents. He looked but oddly enough there was nothing about this house, even though he built it for himself.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17609
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Huh. Maybe he did it off the back of an envelope ? Smile

Ah -- it was the living room floor I was thinking of. I'm so fond of these little level changes. Stepping down into a living room is like "coming home," or at least being welcomed to a relaxing visit. It baffles me that someone would fill that in -- and lose the brick in the process.

Thanks for bringing this to us. It's good to get inside your house once again, at greater depth this time.

SDR
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 4:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Huh. Maybe he did it off the back of an envelope ? Smile

Ah -- it was the living room floor I was thinking of. I'm so fond of these little level changes. Stepping down into a living room is like "coming home," or at least being welcomed to a relaxing visit. It baffles me that someone would fill that in -- and lose the brick in the process.

Thanks for bringing this to us. It's good to get inside your house once again, at greater depth this time.

SDR


I agree on the level changes. The first floor has 3 levels. The LR is the lowest, which has two steps up to the main level. From the main level it is 3 steps up to the entry foyer, where the staircase is to the 2nd floor.

One aspect I like is when you sit in the LR you have about 23' to the peak of the ceiling. When you walk upstairs you feel like you're so high up but then you look out the rear windows you are only about 4' off the ground.

Within the platform that someone built was rigid foam, much of it scraps. I guess they were trying to eliminate the cold coming off the slab. This is not a warm feeling house by any stretch, but I'm slowly fixing the issues one by one.

When I look at those old realtor pictures it's amazing how much has been done and yet still needs to be. The house (and yard) looks very rough in those pictures! Check this link out for a basic floor plan and all the original realtor photos. The room labeled as "storage" off the garage was a pottery studio and the room off the kitchen labeled "pantry" was a photo developing darkroom.

http://www.smartfloorplan.com/orders/bin/shell2.php?folder=mi/v335946&idx=yes
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2665
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 6:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

.... then it seems like you've got to stack the insulation and re-roof.

If someone has had a bad experience with stacking insulation - I'd like to hear about it.

The roof detail looks like it was built for a Northern California climate and an eternal cheap fuel source.

Might be possible to taper insulation at high AND low ends, but consideration of how insulation is fastened and restrained from moving down would be important.

Some changes to the form of the roof will have to occur, one hopes they could be subtle or sympathetic to Mr. Brinks original.

Is the builder still alive?
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
.... then it seems like you've got to stack the insulation and re-roof.

If someone has had a bad experience with stacking insulation - I'd like to hear about it.

The roof detail looks like it was built for a Northern California climate and an eternal cheap fuel source.

Might be possible to taper insulation at high AND low ends, but consideration of how insulation is fastened and restrained from moving down would be important.

Some changes to the form of the roof will have to occur, one hopes they could be subtle or sympathetic to Mr. Brinks original.

Is the builder still alive?


Yeah, it is kind of crazy thinking how people have been dealing with this heat loss and ice dams for the past 50 years. It was -16F here two days ago and there is 1" of insulation (R4?) for this rather large roof! The house originally had two gas furnaces. I had a geothermal system put in 2 years ago.

The Ray-Core panels are rigid with closed cell foam and standard 2x wood studs foamed in place. They suggest screwing through the stud to decking with 7"-8" screws.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have not been paying full attention.

What orientation to the studs in the sips have when installed?
Are they installed parallel to the ridge or do they slope high to low?

How are you thinking about finishing the roof over the sip panels?
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Have not been paying full attention.

What orientation to the studs in the sips have when installed?
Are they installed parallel to the ridge or do they slope high to low?

How are you thinking about finishing the roof over the sip panels?


I don't think it matters too much but I imagine running the panel with the studs parallel to the ridge would make the most sense. Then, the strapping could be nailed on across those studs to create the vented roof.

From what I am gathering in further research the roof should be vented to have the best chance of getting rid of the ice dams. So, it would be decking, SIP, strapping, OSB, felt/IWS, shingles.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17609
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would be interested to know what was involved in the installation of your geothermal system. This has always seemed a most sensible application of a freely- available and renewable on-site energy source.

SDR
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
I would be interested to know what was involved in the installation of your geothermal system. This has always seemed a most sensible application of a freely- available and renewable on-site energy source.

SDR


They did a vertical loop field off the back corner of the house about 20' away from the block wall to the mechanical room. They bored 3 holes around 200' deep each, interconnected those, and ran the loop to the mechanical room in a trench about 6' deep. The geo unit replaced two gas furnaces and an outdoor AC unit. They also installed dual water heaters. One is a holding tank which is heated for "free" as a byproduct of using the geo for heat/AC and then it goes to the other tank for the final electric heating.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17609
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two hundred feet ! Is the loop lined with something ? What is the diameter of the bores or liners ?

I suppose the type of soil impacts the procedure -- or at least the cost . . .

SDR
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2665
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What are you talking about exactly when you refer to "strapping"? Are you refering to a 1X of sorts?

The air space created by the "strapping" that then vents the roof also enables the reflective coating on the sip to work more efficiently.

If material is placed hard against the reflective coating, it will not work. There must be an air space. Furthermore the less the air moves, the greater effectiveness the reflective coating will have.

I don't know how great a difference this would make, but if the sip studs went low high and the "strapping" went parallel to the ridge - you could stagger the strapping for venting purposes and at the same time slow down the vented air.

Just a thought. No hard data to support it.

In any case the finish detailing at the high and low end will make all the difference architecturally speaking.

If you don't taper the insulation at the low end you'll need to detail a thicker fascia. I would not dismiss that out of hand. A built in concelaed gutter would be an expense but might help functionally and formally - cantilever the ends beyond the house etc...
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
Two hundred feet ! Is the loop lined with something ? What is the diameter of the bores or liners ?

I suppose the type of soil impacts the procedure -- or at least the cost . . .

SDR


The drilling of the holes was the most expensive part of the process. They sub that work out to a well drilling company. It look a couple days to do that work. The loop is all done with 1.5" or 2" black "plastic" pipe. There's nothing special about it, looks like typical landscaping material. I took some pictures but I can't seem to find them now. I wanted to refresh my memory on the diameter of the bores. There was no liner in the bores, only the piping.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
What are you talking about exactly when you refer to "strapping"? Are you refering to a 1X of sorts?

The air space created by the "strapping" that then vents the roof also enables the reflective coating on the sip to work more efficiently.

If material is placed hard against the reflective coating, it will not work. There must be an air space. Furthermore the less the air moves, the greater effectiveness the reflective coating will have.

I don't know how great a difference this would make, but if the sip studs went low high and the "strapping" went parallel to the ridge - you could stagger the strapping for venting purposes and at the same time slow down the vented air.

Just a thought. No hard data to support it.

In any case the finish detailing at the high and low end will make all the difference architecturally speaking.

If you don't taper the insulation at the low end you'll need to detail a thicker fascia. I would not dismiss that out of hand. A built in concelaed gutter would be an expense but might help functionally and formally - cantilever the ends beyond the house etc...


Yes, the strapping is just 1x or 2x nailed on the flat to create the vented channels. If possible I would like to cantilever the ends just slightly, maybe only a few inches, to prevent the water from running down the windows. I think that could be done without disturbing the look much at all. The addition of a fascia is another story. One suggestion I got on another forum was to insulate only with 2" of rigid foam, strap, OSB, shingle. It was thought that this could be enough to prevent the damming, add some more R value, and not change the look too much.


Last edited by vortrex on Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:34 am; edited 1 time in total
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2665
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm curious.
Does the ice damn occur only above the living room front ribbon window
where the soffit is located ?

If there's a way to blow heat into that soffit you could melt the ice dam and start the exterior sips at the line on the roof that corresponds to the face of the soffit on the interior.
That would produce a second fascia line back and above from the original edge but the original edge would be preserved.

You'd get a waterfall over the glass of course.
Might look really cool from the inside when melting.
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned leaking issues around that glass detail.
Lewerentz did this kind of outboard glazing detail in Sweden all the time.
With him I think hefty caulking was involved.
They have snow too you know.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can't tell for sure, but from pictures it looks like that soffit is typical through house except for garage.
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