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David



Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 114
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



Modeling Wright's furniture without having its beautiful blueprints is a real pain

I hope it's the right scale
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David Romero
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8220

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The more I ponder the banding on the "west" wall, the more troubled I am about it. The cross section shows a sill under the three windows aligned with the plane over the portal from entrance to ante room, but extending that line around the entire space seems un-Wright-like. The thin banding defines the west wall, and the heavier banding under the windows, running the entire circumference of the ante room, disrupts that. In fact, I think there would be no wood trim over the two entrances from the apsidal spaces into the main gallery, rather a continuation of the plaster wall to form the underside of the wood-trimmed lids.

It may be simply that much of what is shown is not what would have survived at all if the place had been built, since the three west windows - had the gallery been built in the Beacon Street house - would have faced a stone wall or bedroom windows.
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David



Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 114
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
It still seems a shame to me to force unknown light fixtures into the model solely for the purpose of "accurately" lighting the model. That strikes me as putting
the cart before the horse -- or some such metaphor. (Is that a metaphor, Roderick ?) But I've resigned myself . . .
SDR


An amazing thing about the software I use (Vray) is that it is physically correct. The images that you can see below would be the result of placing our model under a sky in these conditions:

https://www.pg-skies.net/products/hdri1103

and to take a photo with a camera with this configuration:



So we can say that the simulation we are doing is something very close to physically building the building and taking a picture.

In these images you can see what part of the project would be left in the dark if we do not introduce artificial light:



(Please, forget the noise that appears in the shadows, I'll solve that later and the model is not the last version)
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15584
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, David. (That digital noise, in the worst instance at lower right, might make a passable oriented-strand-board texture -- or a slightly
reflective quasi-floral wallpaper ?)

So, short of dictating that the walls and/or ceiling of the fireplace room be made electroluminescent, the only way to light that space is with working
light fixtures ? If so, I'll have to accept the inevitable: Reality.

That is what we're going for, isn't it ? I'm not so sure; as an alternative to a guess at "accuracy" in these recreations, one might favor a poetic
interpretation of Wright. After all, that's what was offered in every presentation rendering made during his lifetime -- don't we think ? Accurate
perspective views, clothed in light and color and texture and "entourage" (landscaping, usually) calculated to intrigue, amuse, and inform . . .

Photography showed itself from the first to be a tool capable of art as well as of science (the recording of fact). Indeed the phrase "the camera doesn't lie"
has often been shown to be a falsehood. Why then should the latest means of graphic representation cleave only to what can be proven accurate ?

One of the coolest, most self-confident architectural delineators ever, Paul Stevenson Oles, proudly paired his pre-construction rendering of I M Pei's
new East Building of the National Gallery in Washington, with a color photo taken when the building was complete, as a demonstration of his ability to
correctly construct not only the building but also the effects of daylighting on its surfaces. His book was published in 1979.

Further back into the pre-digital era, we have John Howe and company, carrying on a tradition started, in Wright's studio, by Marion Mahony. Each
of these drafters, including the fearsome Oles, combined orthodox perspective construction with atmospherics of one sort or another. Today's
digital modelers carry on the tradition, employing the tools and exercising their own tastes. There is not and never will be a single "correct"
architectural view; there never has been. The sun takes an infinite number of positions -- and colors and intensities -- during its passage overhead
every day. If for this reason alone, no two architectural views are identical.

SDR
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2196
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

David,
I think I've asked you this before but don't remember.
Do you use a base program with Vray? Or is it all done in Vray?
If not what base program are you using?
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The cross section shows a sill under the three windows aligned with the plane over the portal from entrance to ante room, but extending that line around the entire space seems un-Wright-like. The thin banding defines the west wall, and the heavier banding under the windows, running the entire circumference of the ante room, disrupts that.


Dang it, Roderick, why did you have to say that? And why can't I help but think that you're correct? I'll draw up with something for the window sills and post it later. My only question is whether Wright used punched openings for doors at this time? That feels un-Wright-like to me, but then again that's what I've been showing in the other room this whole time...ah well.

SDR, I was unfamiliar with Paul Stevenson Oles, so that you very much for making me aware. What a talent! Also, I thought your ruminations on rendering and photography to be rather poetic.
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David



Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 114
Location: Spain

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR what you say is very inspiring and poetic, you are right, if it is possible to play with photography much more with software programs, I will think about it.

So far my position on this issue is that I try to show Wright's buildings in the most objective and documentary way possible, I do not want it to be a personal vision of Wright work but something so real that you can touch it, although this is not incompatible with trying to show this buildings in the most beautiful way possible.

The magic in this case appears simply because what we are showing does not exist, it can not exist and most likely it will never exist. The fact that it seems real is precisely a paradox.

The other day, a person who found my work through google images wrote me an email He was looking for images of the Larking building and he was puzzled when he saw color images that he knew did not exist, this person took a while to understand that they were renders and during that time his perception of reality collapsed. I myself also had that feeling a lot of times during the process of creating the images, that is the reason why this work is so addictive!

Tom: I use Vray in combination with 3dsMAX. I have also read very good reviews of Corona, but I have not tried it yet. I have yet to write a post on my website explaining the process of creating the images but I am just too lazy.
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the anteroom without the trim. I gave all three windows one sill, and had it extend past the end the same amount as the tall windows on the long walls. It does look a lot cleaner and it reads more as a two story space.



I made a decision to change the trims on the opposite wall. If you look carefully at the first floor plan, there is a hint of trim depicted on the wall next to the fireplace. I didn't like the way the trim worked over the staircase, so I decided to take it down to the first level, just like on the other side. This also helps with the placement of the lights. They now are all either flanking the doors into the print room proper or they are enclosed in trim. It's logical and consistent, which I love. I also put two sconces up on top of the staircase divider in imitation of the newel post at the Fricke House. This will give David some light for the mezzanine, which looked pretty dark in his sample renderings. I'm sure if he needs more light than the sconces can provide, someone can recommend an appropriate table lamp he could include with his lovely furniture. Incidentally SDR, do you have any other pictures of the Fricke lights? There are some finer details I'm having a hard time nailing down from the pictures you posted.



The prints are still definitely a work in progress. I'm thinking of having them hung from chains like in the Art Institute exhibit Wright organized, but then I'd have to add a picture rail of some kind and I'm not sure I want to disturb the architecture. I suppose if it's thin it may not be too bad though.


Last edited by Meisolus on Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15584
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Meisolus, only what I already posted. Whatever you can get from these two shots will have to do.

Logical and consistent pretty much sums up Wright's "rules" of design. The rest is imagination and inspiration.





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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing I keep forgetting to ask: can someone suggest some window hardware? I'm assuming that the triptych window is fixed (and there is no view where you'd be able to see much anyway) but the big casements/doors would all swing out. I'm thinking that they'd need some kind of handle and a dead bolt at the top and bottom. In my mind the simpler the better, but I bow to the hive mind's collective opinion on this one. Thanks!
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8220

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meisolus, the new drawings look much better, in both rooms. Extending the sill is perfect. For a view of FLW "banding with abandon," look at the entry "New Yamagiwa Frank Lloyd Wright Lamps" on WC to see the interior of Jiyu Gakuen. It may be a hybrid of FLW and Arata Endo, who oversaw construction after FLW left Tokyo for good, but informative, nevertheless.

That corner entry door is a problem, and I don't know the fix. It may be one of those details FLW never quite addressed. However, there is a possible precedent at the McCook House (1905) in Sutton, Nebraska, where the front door cuts through the banding of the large blank wall, unceremoniously.

Don't hang the prints from chains. The sloping wall would have to be scaled to hook the chains to the rail, while setting them on the lower edge would be very easy. Since they are not on permanent display, but are subject to moving about from drawer to display and back again, hanging them on chains would only make a simple situation egregiously difficult.
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8220

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A type of establishment that seems to be extinct these days is the used magazine store. I like to buy old magazines, in part for the ads. I could not find any ad in a magazine of the Spaulding era that directly addressed window hardware, but I did come across 2 manufacturers of hardware (only hinges illustrated) that might have some history:

United States Metal Products Co., 330 Tenth St. San Francisco, CA

The Stanley Works, New Britain, CN

FLW would have used the simplest, least noticeable window hardware, probably bronze.
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roderick, thanks for the suggestions for the hardware. I'll chase them down and see what I find.

Don't worry, I wasn't going to use a picture rail with chains in the main area, but to hang prints in the anteroom and the fireplace room. I'm trying to sort them via subject matter somewhat.

I'm hoping that David can put a curtain in the door you're referencing. In the elevations and sections, many doorways have curtains across them, and I see no reason not to use them to block areas of the model no one wants to see (entrance, bathroom, closet, etc.).
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 116

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone have a good picture of the bolts on the living room doors at the Robie House? Please post if you do. Thanks!
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15584
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I expected it to be a traditional surface-mount slide bolt -- you can find these online. But it turns out to be a twist-knob mortised bolt; I haven't seen these in the flesh.

https://s3.amazonaws.com/architecture-org/files/modules/robie-house-tim-long-flw-preservation-trust-03.jpg

SDR
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