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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looking once more a the original drawings, I see that I am incorrect in asserting that the areas bounded by the wall and ceiling molding "frames"
are raised beyond the base plane . . .

In the "east" view posted above, we see Wright bringing his base board to the fireplace hobs -- of identical height -- and carrying those into the firebox
and along its back wall, a move I have not noticed in other Wright fireplaces. Sure enough, it appears in the long section drawing.

Jim M proposed a molding on the east wall. Roderick made an argument against it. We have no evidence for or against a molding there, but it would
appear to be consistent with what we see on the west wall, in my version of it (previous page). Here's a suggestion for the form of such a molding.


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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.. .or ?


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JimM



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1374

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taliesin's dating would be contradictory (1914? 1919?) without context. Again, I would go by Julia Meech confirming 1914 as the first mention of creating the "room" for Spaulding-or what was most likely an addition to his Boston townhouse. Virtually nothing happened with the scheme until Wright took possession of the plans in 1919 and sent them, apparently unsolicited, to the Met museum in New York.
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8408

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 4:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the two drawings directly above, there is an error, according to FLW's section: The molding in the upper level of the east wall does not extend to the floor, but returns to form a complete rectangle just inches above the mopboard.

Because the stair interrupts the wall of the fireplace, I doubt there is any wall molding at all from one end to the other.

I see no reason why the windows at the ends of the east apse should be of unequal size, as it appears in the new sections.

Not shown clearly in the original drawings, the stair railing emanates from the height of the balcony railing to the center, and continues at that height to the newel at the landing, suggesting that there might be some sort of enclosure of the stairway with, perhaps, the mopboard continuing at the height of the upper floor, crossing under the NE window, and returning to the railing. You know how reluctant FLW was about hand rails following the angle of the stairs. The entire stairway might be paneled in wood?
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you. To be clear, as explained on the previous page, the molding outlines proposed in red are meant to replace, not augment, the moldings
shown in monochrome.

As we have no evidence for a molding on the lower level of the east end (with fireplace), I believe the correct move is to leave that wall blank. But
consistency of a sort might argue for the molding I show above -- or some version of it -- so I was moved to propose one.

There is internal inconsistency in Wright's drawings. In the perspective view, last drawing on page one, the end-wall moldings are not shown to be
different in any way from the others. The section drawings, which might be take to have more detail and to be later works in the series, do show the
end-wall moldings (only) to be further from the edges of the wall than those on other surfaces.

I have confidence that Meisolus will sort these matters out before he's finished.

SDR
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"I see no reason why the windows at the ends of the east apse should be of unequal size, as it appears in the new sections."

I don't find a model view showing this condition. Can you elaborate ? What page should I be looking at ?

SDR
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here is my attempt to answer all of your wonderful ideas regarding the print room and what to do with the trims. My apologies in advance if I don't cover everything, but I will try.

First, I thought it might be helpful for us to be able to see the room with the middle removed. I know it's kind of a crazy idea, but I think it gives some clarity if you view the entire space as a whole instead of divided into three pieces. I wonder if Wright conceived the room this way and then added the middle part? It would explain how the trims on the long walls interact with everything else.









I think that the way it is shown in these images has the trims properly drawn to a point. The trim above the mezzanine does not carry down into the lower level as I originally showed it, and the trim on the opposite wall goes down further towards the floor than the trim on the side walls. This is something I hadn't noticed until recently and is what caused me to change some of the trims about a week or so ago, leading us down this path.

Second, I deliberately ignored the second line inside the trim that is shown in the elevations/sections. As I've said before, right or wrong we have to choose and while that extra faint line is shown on the elevations, there does not seem to be any hint of what it is on the sections. Also, it is not on the perspective drawing. Having a plaster step seems extremely un-Wrightian to me. I can't imagine it would have been a painted stripe either, but show me an example from Wright's work and I'll shut up and add it.

SDR, I'm struggling with the drawing you posted at the top of page 9 showing a complete box of trim above the mezzanine and then another partial box next to the fireplace. If you look carefully at the floor plan on page 1, it almost looks like there is some kind of trim indicated there, but none of the other trims are indicated anywhere else. Is it actually there, or are my eyes playing tricks? If it is, perhaps that's justification enough to add the trims to that wall, though I don't know that they're essential.

I have more to say on the matter, but I need to manipulate some images first, so that will be in my next post, which hopefully should be in an hour or so.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, M. I think it makes perfect sense to look at the room without its central display architecture, in the process of understanding the space and Wright's intention.


Yes, these new views seem to show what should be there. The silent consensus seems to be that the distances from wall edge of the N/S and
E/W (and ceiling) trims should be consistent, rather than differing as seen in the long section. I'll give up on that one.

I'll repeat myself from the top of the page: there is no evidence (because of Wright's incomplete drawing set) for a molding to the right of the fireplace.
Drawing it in red was just an exercise.

The one area not shown in your new views is the wall opposite the fireplace. Do we agree that it should look like this -- minus perhaps the unverified pencil-
molding and the other wall-mounted objects ?





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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR, while I would certainly like to believe I'm perfect and a keener observer than most, you absolutely beat me on this one. I had seen you mention before about the distance of the trims on the N/S vs. E/W walls and just wasn't picking up on what you meant. Looking at the drawings this time it suddenly leaped out at me, and I must admit my inner nitpicker got his feelings hurt a bit, but you are absolutely correct. And as I tend to like "odd" variations like this, I immediately added it in. I think seeing it all even in the perspective clouded my judgment. Anyway, here it is:





As far as the trim going back on the paneled bases (for lack of a better term), I'm actually leaning towards no on them. I'm afraid I don't have time to illustrate why, but there are two reasons. First, I have started to think of the central portion of the room as more of an 'interruption' within a whole space. In my mind, that trim is theoretically going behind all the print drawers, and wouldn't be returning to the paneled bases. The second reason is because if you are in the room with the fireplace, one of those trims has to go back towards the stairs. I left it out on my initial model because I didn't know what to do with it, and I still don't. But as I said, this is what I'm leaning towards and haven't made up my mind yet. I'm sure we can discuss it more in the coming days!
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay -- I'll buy that. Seeing the trim on the large wall, with no easel structure interrupting it, I was struck that that lower segment doesn't exist (except in
the imagination), while the "paneled bases" (I guess you mean, at the entrances to the "arena") are conveniently capped at just that height, and
seem (to me) to be crying out to be connected. But, in this late essay on frame-shaped molding, there are no "wrapped" examples, rectangles of trim
that fold around exterior or interior corners; see work of fifteen years earlier, in Oak Park, for examples. So, wrapping the molding from one plane to an
adjacent one is not represented in this project -- I guess.

The resized end-wall frames look great, to me. The wall trim appears on close inspection of the full-page repro of the cross-section of the room, in
"Treasures of Taliesin," to be no more than 2 1/2" square -- quite slender. I don't know what you estimated it to be. I scaled it using the chair seat
(itself not visible but inferred from a similar chair in Wright's studio http://ellenrockett.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/flwright-
home-14.jpg). The "pencil line" would be double that, or five inches, inboard of the molding. If it were me, I wouldn't care that we don't know how it was
to be made; I'd just draw it on the wall as a 1/2" wide line.

SDR


Last edited by SDR on Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"But, in this late essay on frame-shaped molding, there are no "wrapped" examples, rectangles of trim that fold around exterior or interior corners."

I think you've hit the nail on the head SDR. By wrapping trim around the corner, we'd be adding a design element that really isn't found elsewhere on any of the wall trim. To me, that is the best argument not to connect it. Though it is crying out to me as well.

Trim, by necessity, wraps around the "arena" in order to support the prints. It wraps inside the entrances and then stops at the paneled bases. By not connecting it, it helps make the arena to be more "other" than the rest of the space. When you look at the whole thing from above, the print area really does stand out as something special and different, almost like a huge jewel box. I strongly feel Wright wanted it to be an element within an element.

Have we solved the Great Spaulding Print Room Trim Saga of 2018?
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 11, 2018 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're close -- see added paragraph above, for what it's worth. Details are what we're after; that little line makes a difference in Wright's drawings, which
is why I think it should be there. But you're the boss on this train !

Now, the light fixtures. When you left we were talking about their height from the floor, and I think we'd mostly concurred on the idea that they could be at
head-of-door height, and (Roderick insists) not placed on wood but on plaster.

If that is so, do the placements on any of my versions of your model stills suit you ?

SDR
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 15927
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(When copying your handsome light fixture I enlarged it by 15%; it seemed to want a little more visual heft . . .)

SDR
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8408

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meisolus, your new drawings are an improvement, however, the plan of the upper level does not indicate any connection between the rail and the lid over the radiator case. If a connection were there, that trim would continue all the way to the wall, which would interfere with the rectangle of trim on the east wall. Eliminating that connection, I would still say the radiator case should be lowered and the window lengthened to match the glass doors at the far end. The situation on the west side is different, although the greater length of the window above the toilet door might cause some problems with head height. (A north elevation would have been so helpful!)
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Meisolus



Joined: 06 Jun 2010
Posts: 141

PostPosted: Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Roderick Grant - I agree with you that there shouldn't be a connection between the rail and the lid over the radiator case. In light of all the discussion about trims, it has been removed.

I am not convinced, however, that the radiator case should be shorter. Not having an elevation of that wall has been a huge disadvantage, but I think I've worked my way around that pretty well.

First, the plan is actually detailed. If you look closely at it, you can see where trims wrap around it (in defiance of the rest of the room) but by being logical and trying not to add anything, I think my overall design is pretty accurate.



The real issue here is height though. In the entrance to the space, there is clearly a board that goes around the room just above the doors/below the windows (though there are inconsistencies throughout the drawings). In the plan and reflected ceiling plan, we can see that there is a shelf below both windows, one at the door and a much larger one over the radiator cover. It seems logical that the radiator cover would then be high enough to come all the way up to it, hence its extravagant height.

Coming up with the height for the other radiator was much less intuitive. To me it seemed like having the radiator be short was incorrect for two reasons. First, it seemed really squat and not proportional. In plan it's the same size, so I have to assume it's just a matter of reducing the height and nothing more. Second, it brings the level of the window down low enough that you can stand next to it and look out of it. Like many of Wright's rooms, this is not a place for views. Also, by having it be the height of the top of the main print room area, it's almost exactly the same height as the other one.

I made a quick study to show what it would look like if the top was level with the mezzanine floor. You'll have to mentally bring the window down on top of it but you get the idea.



I don't think my original solution is perfect, but I prefer it to having the radiator cover short.

SDR - I'm excited to place the lights but it may have to wait a few days. Life is getting away from me. I do like your arrangements and I agree with Roderick that they should be on plaster, not wood. The only problem is the entrance has that board around the upper part of it and the fireplace room does not. I'm sure we can make it work though.

As always, thanks for the input everyone! It's so helpful.
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