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Recreation work: Trinity Chapel in Norman, Oklahoma.
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David



Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 136
Location: Madrid, Spain

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:36 pm    Post subject: Recreation work: Trinity Chapel in Norman, Oklahoma. Reply with quote

A new work based on a FLLW design, this time never built, the wonderful Trinity chapel in Norman.



This project is more speculative than my previous works since Wright had to leave the design at a very early stage.

Complet set here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/albums/72157676260718244

And more information about this project here:

http://www.hookedonthepast.com/trinity-chapel-in-norman-by-frank-lloyd-wright/

I would love to know what you think about it!
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David Romero
www.hookedonthepast.com


Last edited by David on Sat Feb 04, 2017 4:43 am; edited 3 times in total
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peterm



Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 6078
Location: Chicago, Il.---Oskaloosa, Ia.

PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2017 5:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fantastic!

I would mainly question the colored glass design and the seating. The backs of the chairs look like they should not be nearly so upright.
The stucco color might be a bit too "saturated"?
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DRN



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3788
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What a way to start a day! What a stunning recreation of the design! Many thanks for your efforts, skill, and talent on this.
I'm impressed as always with the attention to the reality of a building in the weather, complete with some patina on the painted concrete surfaces. Considering how little published original material there is on this design, I'd say this is about as good as it is going to get without over speculation. My only suggestions might be:
1. The ramps in the images seem to have a cross slope (lateral as well as longitudinal slope) that would be difficult to negotiate for less agile visitors. From Wright's drawings I don't believe he had yet resolved the issue either at the time the project was set aside. Probably should be left as is here too rather than attempting to anticipate Wright's solution.

2. Another solution for the seating might be to use a type that Wright used for similar projects in the mid 1950's, such as the seats used at Beth Shalom, Kalita Humphreys, and Marin County Civic Center.

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=%2bTncVJLe&id=19D304A79F570D33D1C5CDB5AA4DC42FFCAB95C4&q=Wright+beth+shalom+seating&simid=608021856961564128&selectedIndex=8&PC=APPL

https://www.1stdibs.com/furniture/seating/chairs/frank-lloyd-wright-kalita-humphreys-theater-chair/id-f_3589612/

3.While I recognize the desire to fill out the design to make it appear complete, I might suggest if the center pulpit and chancel was not drawn by Wright, it may be best to leave it open without a conjectural design.

I've always liked the power and geometric purity of this Wright design. My suspicion is that the form of the proposed design acknowledged the crystalline nature of Bruce Goff's earlier scheme for the site. A CGI of Goff's building can be seen here:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7sIgHfLyLR0
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 9348

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That problem with the slope of intersecting ramps can be corrected only by making the intersection flat, which should not be too hard to do without altering the outline of the ramps.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17896
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ADA codes require periodic flats along a ramp, too -- sadly. They too could be hidden behind continuous parapets, at the expense of a zig-zag of pipe railing at the prescribed height AFF ?

The elevation drawing can be compared usefully with the "photo" view, side by side at David's second linked page. The reality suffers from a "squat" appearance, from the ground, I think. Should the architect have made his tower even taller and more slender, in compensation ? Not that the visitor would have an opportunity to make the same comparison . . .

The rotated view, below the first shot, is somewhat better in this regard. Where is the plan of this building ? Is it triangular or pyramidal ?

SDR


Last edited by SDR on Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 9348

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

With all due respect to the needs of the disabled, ADA is an affront to architecture.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17896
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is certainly a challenge to the architect -- even when he gets to incorporate the mandate into his design from the get-go . . . ?

SDR
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David



Joined: 27 Sep 2016
Posts: 136
Location: Madrid, Spain

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you all!

The design of the ramp is beautifully simple with just one slope, although I agree that it is not very practical and it is against any possible regulations. Was there an ADA code in 1958?

Regarding the pulpit, please analyze this image at the highest resolution:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/31867967474/sizes/l/

(This drawing belongs to FRANK LLOYD WRIGHT: THE COMPLETE WORKS VOLUMES 1-12 (GA) Pfeiffer, Bruce Brooks)

You can see how in the center of the floor is written "stairs". I assumed a staircase at that point could only be part of a pulpit.

In this same drawing you can observe how the ramp appears continuous without any flat part which is consistent with the elevations.

The pulpit I designed is a free interpretation of what can be seen in the Unitarian Society Meeting House (arguably, of course).

DRN Thanks for the pictures of the seats in the other chapels, it is a detail that I can effectively improve.

Regarding the stained glass I'm afraid this image is the best we have:


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David Romero
www.hookedonthepast.com


Last edited by David on Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:56 am; edited 1 time in total
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peterm



Joined: 13 Mar 2008
Posts: 6078
Location: Chicago, Il.---Oskaloosa, Ia.

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Another detail which you might consider... I love the spruce, evergreen forest that you have used, but using a deciduous forest background might be more in keeping with the Norman, Oklahoma landscape. Your forest looks more like Scandinavia to me. https://www.researchgate.net/figure/268063094_fig1_Figure-1-A-contemporary-aerial-view-of-Norman-Oklahoma-Below-this-seemingly-dense
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JimM



Joined: 06 Jan 2005
Posts: 1467

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Every time I've looked at this rendering I've wondered what the bulbous formation at the bottom of each ramp is. The full rendering (Mono 12) shows them superimposed over the crisp ends as in Davids model. So obvious I'm missing something? Did I miss it in a post?
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17896
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The view drawing shown here is the same portion of the original as one published in "Treasures of Taliesin." The full drawing sheet is found in Taschen III (p 549, very near the end of the book):





Sure enough, the "library lions" appear at all three ramps. Odd ?










all images and text 2009 by TASCHEN GmbH and by the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17896
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2017 8:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The angle chosen for the original perspective view is perhaps the most flattering while at the same time conveying the maximum of information about the form of the building.

The plan from Taschen (above) seems to solve the entry problem; compare to the plan David linked here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143771393@N04/31867967474/sizes/l/ At the same time it makes the upper portion of each ramp functionally redundant ?

SDR
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DRN



Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 3788
Location: Cherry Hill, NJ

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David:
There were no formal requirements for access to buildings by the disabled in the U.S. in 1958. That evolution began in the late 1960's and early 1970's in buildings built with government funding, and became universal with the passage of the ADA in 1992.

Wright's ramps at Trinity were remarkably forward thinking for their time...one wonders if Wright's advanced age and physical condition contributed to this.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 17896
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One wonders how a preacher or minister addresses a congregation which is spread equally in every direction around him or her ? Does he ignore roughly half of his audience throughout his sermon or reading; does he periodically pivot to a new position on the dais; does he constantly turn from one lectern -- of three identical ones, with three sets of notes or texts -- to another ?

Perhaps the idealized seating plan of this chapel would sooner or later have been altered, with the dais placed under one of the three windows, and the rows of seats arranged to roughly face that point. Are there other churches with true in-the-round seating plans like Wright's ?

SDR
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 9348

PostPosted: Sun Feb 05, 2017 3:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Theater in the round has been around since Shakespeare's time.
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