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Roofing/insulation for apprentice house
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
That last house I showed has a twin. With first-floor windows placed so low in them, do you suppose the floor is sub-surface, like yours ?

Those look like they could be the work of Carl Koch, in New England, or Charles Goodman, at Hollin Hills in Alexandria, VA.

Larry Brink would have been so pleased with himself, when he found he could have brick wainscote in his living room, and a sub-surface floor, all at the same time -- a wooden vessel perched upon a hollow brick-masonry plinth, the seam between the two expressed as a slot, like the waist-band of a Pontiac Fiero or a Renault Fuego . . .

And he gives you a bit of "compression and release" at the entry, whose porch overhead is all of 6'-10", according to the section on page 2. Did the slatted exterior bench "by owner" get built ? I'm very fond of the front door, which also has precedent in Europe.

SDR


It probably does have the LR below grade. That's not uncommon here. The house I grew up in was the same way. There is another house in the neighborhood that is interesting, 2022 Delafield is the address. It's hard to get a good view of it in Google.

I imagine the bench got built but did not survive the weather. There is also supposed to be an owner built lamp at the entry to the porch which is no longer there either. All the wood in the porch area was severely neglected. I've restored the pine window, redwood ceiling, and the oak door frame. The oak door will happen in the spring. I've also restored the redwood above the garage door.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2316
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The college of architecture (North Campus Ann Arbor) would be interested in this case. It would make a great case study - materials and methods seminar.
You might get some interesting ideas there as well.

Ice Dam history?
I'm wondering if around the time Wright built Taliesin if it was simply a phenomena one lived with and expected.

Philosophical attitude about permanence revealed by Wright in the first of those recently posted interviews. He is asked if cities are here to stay. His response:
"Nothing is here to stay."
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8595

PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The house with the semi-sunk lower level is very much like the one Gyo Obata, of HOK, designed for himself in St. Louis (Arch. Record Houses of 1959, page 112). The entrance fa├žade is very similar in layout and scale, with the central entrance at mid-level. However, Obata's windows are larger. In his house, living, dining, kitchen, 3 bedrooms and 1 bath are all on the upper floor, with playroom and studio below, facing the street, and a fourth bedroom and bath on the lower floor. Instead of the lot falling to the rear, as with the above house, Obata's lot rises, so his living areas open up to the back terrace. Having the main rooms upstairs seems preferable; that way the ceiling can be sloped.

(I got this magazine in a shop, because it had a small B&W of the terne roof of the Dobkins House, which I had never seen published before (pg 30), and a photo of Ludekens' kitchen intact (pg 117), the most beautiful kitchen in America.)
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DavidC



Joined: 02 Sep 2006
Posts: 6557
Location: Oak Ridge, TN

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 10:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vortex - here is a link to the latest episode from This Old House (segment starts ~3:30), where contractor Tommy Silva discusses and shows to a group of apprentices the importance of using a self-sealing membrane and a drip edge - along with application techniques.

On previous shows, they have talked about covering the entire roof in a self-sealing membrane in cases where ice damming is very prevalent. Also, perhaps the technique shown of offsetting the drip edge a finger's width away from the facia might help to keep any water from running down your windows?


David
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2316
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This from Joseph Lstiburek's 1994 'Mixed Climates':

"Homes today work differently than they did in the past. The old solutions don't apply.
Homes of yesterday were uncomfortable - too cold in winter, too hot in summer - but they usually stood the test of time.
Houses of today are exceptionally comfortable but frequently experience serious problems long before the initial mortgage is fully paid.
Can there be any connection between comfort and durability?
The answer is, "Yes".
In a strange way what we do to homes to make them more comfortable has in fact made them less durable.
In the last 50 years there have three important changes to the way homes are built:
1) the introduction of thermal insulation,
2) the development of tighter building envelopes,
3) the introduction of forced air heating and cooling.
Each of thes has made houses more comfortable but also less durable"

Lstiburek then goes on to explain how the three changes effect durability.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

...and this, first from John Ruskin, then second from Frank Lloyd Wright:

1)
When we build let us think we build forever.
Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone.
Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for;
and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone,
that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred
because our hands have touched them,
and that people will say as they look upon the labor
and wrought substance of them,
"See!, this our parents did for us."

2)
Nothing is here to stay.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 11:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DavidC wrote:
vortex - here is a link to the latest episode from This Old House (segment starts ~3:30), where contractor Tommy Silva discusses and shows to a group of apprentices the importance of using a self-sealing membrane and a drip edge - along with application techniques.

On previous shows, they have talked about covering the entire roof in a self-sealing membrane in cases where ice damming is very prevalent. Also, perhaps the technique shown of offsetting the drip edge a finger's width away from the facia might help to keep any water from running down your windows?


David


There's a lot of debate online about putting IWS over the entire roof and it seems the majority of roofers are against this, with many of the roofers posting they would not take a job where the owner is demanding IWS over the entire roof. Apparently the shingles become so attached to the IWS that the next time a roof is needed it also becomes a full re-sheathing too. My house does appear to have IWS that I can see around the perimeter, not sure if the entire house is done.

The drip edge is not offset at all and that seems like a smart thing to do. The shingles do extend slightly past the drip edge at least. Even with the drip edge pulled out a finger's worth this would not be enough to keep the water off the windows. I'm guessing that extending the roof 3" would be enough.

The potential water leaks from ice dams are only part of the problem. Ice dams are extremely heavy. Ice weighs 60lbs per cubic feet. That adds up quickly when I've got about 100 linear feet of ice dams and all that weight is concentrated right at the edge. In the case of the front of the house there is no support to carry this weight where the 32' tray window is.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
...and this, first from John Ruskin, then second from Frank Lloyd Wright:

1)
When we build let us think we build forever.
Let it not be for present delight nor for present use alone.
Let it be such work as our descendants will thank us for;
and let us think, as we lay stone upon stone,
that a time is to come when those stones will be held sacred
because our hands have touched them,
and that people will say as they look upon the labor
and wrought substance of them,
"See!, this our parents did for us."

2)
Nothing is here to stay.


My goal with this house is to extend the life as best I can and make it feel less like camping and more like a home of today. While doing so I will always keep the original look in mind and stick to that as much as possible. In some cases it just doesn't make sense to strictly adhere to the original design, the roof is a perfect example. The framing of the front tray window would be another.
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Roderick Grant



Joined: 29 Mar 2006
Posts: 8595

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know where Joseph Lstiburek gets the idea that forced air dates back only 50 years. The comfortable house I grew up in was built pre-WWI with forced air (heat only). It did fall from favor, but has made a comeback, since heating and cooling now occupy the same system, and you cannot cool a house by running cold water through the pipes. The principal reason modern houses are less durable is the "tighter building envelopes." Houses need to breathe.
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SDR



Joined: 17 Jun 2006
Posts: 16258
Location: San Francisco

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 1:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the detail section of the tray window there is note of 2x4 hangers, a 2' o.c. These are not shown bolted to the rafters and the sill framing, and the photos show only three or four of these.

Could they be replaced by, for instance, 2" x 4" steel tubing, to make them functional as suspenders ? Or isn't that the problem . . . ?

It is interesting that the rhythm of the existing hangers does not reflect the spacing of the mullions of the clerestory. Are those mullions spaced 2" o.c. ? the architect's rendering of his house shows only minimized joints to the tray window glazing, and no appearance of other verticals there.

SDR
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2316
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that detail section you are referring to exists only at the garage.
The section thru the slot window has no hangers called out for it.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not read yet what Lsitburek says about how forced air contributes to durability, but he says that insulation in wall cavities contributes by canceling heat in the cavity that would otherwise contribute to drying up moisture.
I bet he would agree that air tightness is the PRINCIPLE reason.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
Posts: 59
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SDR wrote:
In the detail section of the tray window there is note of 2x4 hangers, a 2' o.c. These are not shown bolted to the rafters and the sill framing, and the photos show only three or four of these.

Could they be replaced by, for instance, 2" x 4" steel tubing, to make them functional as suspenders ? Or isn't that the problem . . . ?

It is interesting that the rhythm of the existing hangers does not reflect the spacing of the mullions of the clerestory. Are those mullions spaced 2" o.c. ? the architect's rendering of his house shows only minimized joints to the tray window glazing, and no appearance of other verticals there.

SDR


There are upper 2x4's every 2' OC that are nothing more than hangers for the drywall. They are nailed on the flat and offer no structural support. There are also 2x4's on the bottom which too are installed on the flat and are nothing more than internal support for the plywood sandwich. They are not attached to the structure.

The structural problem with the framing of this tray window is that the bottom section of it has dropped 1.5" over time. Someone added three 4x4 posts across the front to apparently help support this. The mystery is if it dropped 1.5" out of level then why is there no gap between the upper edge of the window and the roofing? The upper framing is still level and does not look to ever be altered. It seems maybe someone removed this window assembly at some point and adjusted the mounting/siding to compensate for this without fixing the real issue (poor framing design). I want to fix this so the bottom framing is level, there is enough support to not need the posts, and there is suitable air space to insulate the eave. I'm amazed the lower section has not collapsed more. There is basically nothing structural there. The long threaded rods that attach the plywood sandwich to the masonry never had the nuts threaded on! My contractor is going to gut the entire front of the house and do it properly with standard framing methods. The glass will be replaced at that time also.

There are four pieces of glass which are 8' each. This is a glass to glass seam, there is nothing else where the glass meets. These glass butt joints correspond to the placement of 2x6's at the brick wall which hold up the 2x8 beam.
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Tom



Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Posts: 2316
Location: Black Mountain, NC

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vortrex: do you have drawings that you can post of what your contractor is going to build?
Would be educational, at least for me.
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vortrex



Joined: 24 Dec 2013
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Location: Ann Arbor, MI

PostPosted: Mon Jan 01, 2018 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tom wrote:
Vortrex: do you have drawings that you can post of what your contractor is going to build?
Would be educational, at least for me.


No I don't. I got it all uncovered so we could see what we were dealing with underneath and then winter came before work could start. He's not the drawing type, but I'll be sure to post some pictures when it's completed and before it's sealed up with drywall. The look will be the same with the only difference being the glass slightly recessed from the roof line instead of protruding out past it.
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