Details - John Pew Houses

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Tom
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by Tom »

#2

Pretty sure he's showing steel as the darker members in the computer colored axons.
One question would be what does the typical connection look like where the
major steel intersects - welded, bolted?
The structural concept seems weak at those points - especially if bolted.
But I'm not an engineer.
Last edited by Tom on Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

juankbedoya
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by juankbedoya »

I don't know if you use sketchup, but there is a beautiful and complete 3d model in 3d warehouse.

https://3dwarehouse.sketchup.com/model/ ... oyd-Wright

Roderick Grant
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by Roderick Grant »

g-dorn, the addition of that second pier left of the pier in the plan at the far end of the living room, which does not appear in published plans (or your perspectives), along with the change from brick to stone, indicates that published plans are not necessarily accurate. The pier in the plan likely dates from the brick version, and i suspect, as-built, is heftier. Neither of those piers is expressed inside the house.

Also, the heating system of the living room, like that at Lloyd Lewis, consists of a plenum under the floor with heat coming between the floor boards, which are spaced 1/4" apart. So something more complex is going on under the floor, and there cannot be more than the one layer of flooring inside.

From the photo showing the door into the basement from outside, i would guess that the stone wall to the right of the door is the chimney. The full-height stone wall ends with the back side of the chimney. The section indicates that the basement extends into the dining area.

g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

" by juankbedoya » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:31 am

I don't know if you use sketchup, but there is a beautiful and complete 3d model in 3d warehouse."

thanks for the suggestion

I have the sketchup model - it shows the building nicely as per the published photos.

You reminded me to have a look at the basement layout - attached is a basement plan and basement/stair section of that SU model.

I thinks it must be pretty close, but how is that bit of stone flooring supported in the kitchen - on the timber joists?

In the AD drawings that SDR has provided, dwg 4012.21 - show the brick fire place section, which shows in detail how a brick floor is supported - on timber joists - maybe thats what they did? ie timber joists, cement sheet board ( ala James Hardie Scyon sheet) brick/stone.

That Detail attached

Image

Image

Image
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

Tom wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Pretty sure he's showing steel as the darker members in the computer colored axons.
One question would be what does the typical connection look like where the
major steel intersects - welded, bolted?
The structural concept seems weak at those points - especially if bolted.
But I'm not an engineer.
Sorry, yes the steel members are a darker shade of brown.

This photo of the UF roof framing shows that steel was readily used in the roof framing. perimeter beam plus outriggers for the window shades - some of the joists appear to be welded and others a plate with bolts ( for steel to timber connections) and the steel is a dark rusty brown - hence my colour in my model - I suppose I could change the colour to be more obvious - maybe an oxide pink.

photo from http://www.is-arch.com/projects/john-ru ... residence/

Image
G Dorn
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SDR
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by SDR »

This well-known view drawing of the house contains some erasure at the top. In Monograph 6 can be found a second image, published at very small size; it is interesting for its differences from the other version. Both views show a pair of masonry piers at the terminus---or even a C-shaped structure ?

https://images.wisconsinhistory.org/700 ... 0819-l.jpg

Image

Image

g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

Roderick Grant wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 3:19 pm
g-dorn, the addition of that second pier left of the pier in the plan at the far end of the living room, which does not appear in published plans (or your perspectives), along with the change from brick to stone, indicates that published plans are not necessarily accurate. The pier in the plan likely dates from the brick version, and i suspect, as-built, is heftier. Neither of those piers is expressed inside the house.
If I understand you correctly,

drawings in the ADA monograph no 4012.15 4012.16 show the brick masses - these drawings also show the fire place in the rear (south) wall of the living room , which is also conforming to the earlier sketch design. Is this rather large fire place, the extra pier you are referring to?

note according to the W. A. Storer book , North is looking towards the lake from main deck at an approx 30 degree angle.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/3650+ ... -89.456037
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

SDR wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:04 am
This well-known view drawing of the house contains some erasure at the top. In Monograph 6 can be found a second image, published at very small size; it is interesting for its differences from the other version. Both views show a pair of masonry piers at the terminus---or even a C-shaped structure ?

https://images.wisconsinhistory.org/700 ... 0819-l.jpg

Image

Image

Oh so you mean a cross wall between the 2 piers like so

Image


I could imagine that this cross wall would add to the stability of this cluster of mass.

unfortunately according to this scanned photo from ADA houses no 6 not built!

Image
G Dorn
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SDR
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by SDR »

I have not found a published plan which definitively rules out a second pier. The plan we've all seen shows the top of the up-hill pier
---because it isn't hidden beneath the structure.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/0c/99 ... 795c45.jpg

S

g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

SDR wrote:
Tue Apr 07, 2020 12:48 am
I have not found a published plan which definitively rules out a second pier. The plan we've all seen shows the top of the up-hill pier
---because it isn't hidden beneath the structure.

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/12/0c/99 ... 795c45.jpg

S
yep, could do with some more detailed photos of that lower area.


For me its about working out where the steel would be located.
G Dorn
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Tom
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by Tom »

#3

I just emailed Isthmus and asked them (politely) to join our discussion.
Hopefully, if they join, we might be able to get more information and some additional shots.
The shot gdorn posted is the first time I've been able to get confirmation on those welded steel framing joints.
Would like to have an egineer explain just how strong a welded cantilevered appendage really is.
... seems like there would be a very strong rotational force at those points.
Last edited by Tom on Wed Apr 08, 2020 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

Ive started to have a look at the carport and UF framing.

Gees this is just a mystery to me as the living room floor framing and rather even more adventurous

some paramaters

facia to carport is some 3 bays (3.6m) to the nearest supporting mass ( powder roof wallNw corner

a midpoint of the 3.6m is the bearing point for the UF walls and roof ( see long section below)

stair void prevents any connection to the fireplace mass stonework apart from at the ends

structural depth of 150 mm / 6 “ and fascia depth of 225mm / 9” for floor framing members


so in studying these , I’ve had a go at locating some steel bearers -ie 150 UB , which according to my books have a maximum deflection limit span of 4.9m ( 1800 spacing) as floor bearer

seehttps://www.libertygfg.com/media/163097 ... dition.pdf
https://www.libertygfg.com/media/163097 ... dition.pdf
150 x 50 joists @ 600 c’s can span max 3.0m single span ( 6 x 2 span max 10 ft @ 2 ft centres)

therefore to the model I added
beam to powder room north wall , back spanning to chimney and cantilever 3.6m picking up UF north west corner post
beam to dining south wall - cantilever 1.4m west and 3.0m east to pick up breakfast nook corner = UF South east corner post
beam spanning across kitchen east wall - this is to reduce span of timber floor joists - it could be argued that the kitchen wall and wall between dining and carport storeroom could do that work - but that would require them to be installed prior to the floor framing.
beam supported by kitchen pier back span to breakfast nook approx 9.0m long- this is to reduce the unsupported length of carport fascia beam.

such that it looks like this

Image

Image

what do others think?
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

For the the living room roof / roof deck ,

I've come up with a 2 spiked 6 x 2 framing system - I think I've seen this in some other FLW roof system - cant remember where.

It uses the cantilever to counter balance the main span thus allowing reduced depth.

Image




what struct me when I added my person outline as a scale, is how low the ceiling is!
G Dorn
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SDR
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by SDR »

I appreciate your work on this, g.dorn. I'm not an architect and won't comment on your conclusions, except to say that explorers like yourself can expect to be surprised by Wright's cleverness in achieving his sometimes astounding architectural goals---by hook or crook ! As someone who knows remarked, "He expected a lot from a 2x4." His apprentices and his resident engineering consultants must have scratched their heads often enough to require hair transplants . . .

But I'm with you all the way in looking for superior solutions (employing whatever materials would do the job) to the structural challenges Wright's designs pose---to we mere mortals !

S

g.dorn
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Re: Details - John Pew Houses

Post by g.dorn »

Tom wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 2:09 pm
Pretty sure he's showing steel as the darker members in the computer colored axons.
One question would be what does the typical connection look like where the
major steel intersects - welded, bolted?
The structural concept seems weak at those points - especially if bolted.
But I'm not an engineer.
Well I hope welded joints are okay - my engineer seems to think so. As an example- we have welded joints on a project currently under construction - 300 UB outriggers welded to 300 UB beams
Admittedly the loads aren't much( awning). We did get to cantilever the main floor bearers 2.1m.

Image
Image
Image
G Dorn
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