Bernard Schwartz House

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g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

Thanks for the Section-
I hadn't seen that thread on the Schwartz house.

The section detail showing the steel beams - seems to be related to an earlier version of the design and if it has any meaning its titled "Schwartz boathouse Sec Det" - which I noted is also noted on the monograph floor plan where it says Proposed pergola to boathouse and farm unit

IF section CC of the kitchen is true, then the steel beam could be incorporated into the East brickwork there with enough back span - provided the shading in the window is there to hide the steel.
This Section is also suggesting that maybe a basement was contemplated.
Interestingly no opening shown in the brick pier - does that mean the opening is only on the "heater room" side ?

I wonder if the roof is steeped as indicated

and its kinda odd that its not showing the carport roof - when clearly it ought to.

Image
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

Sections AA and BB are showing

floor framing is 12 x 2 built up from 4 x2 in typical Usonian way
roof framing is 8 x 2 built up from 4 x2 in typical Usonian way

Section is also indicating that the recreation roof was lowered 1 unit
and
mezzanine balcony reduced in width and became stepped

Im wondering how the ends of the carport/bedroom floor joists at his mezz balcony - are supported!
could there be a 200 x 200 steel beam spanning from kitchen brickwork to masterbedroom pier, such that top 4 x 2 of joists cantilevers out to become the mezz balcony?

like so

ImageSchwartz floor framing 1 by g dorn, on Flickr
G Dorn
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Tom
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by Tom »

Glad you're tackling this.
60 items in the drawing file at Avery for this project

SDR
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by SDR »

The steelwork detail on the section drawing is labeled for, and clearly relates to, the carport and terrace parapet. On the plan, there is a clear path for both the upper and lower steel beams to penetrate the house framing and masonry---deeply. It may be that the only difference between this section drawing and the built carport/terrace is that the carport roof is moved from the upper beam to the lower one---turning the steel diagram upside down, with no difference in structural effect.

Note the 3/8" x 8" flitch plate welded to the ends of the projecting beams, at the level of the roof projection. This provision would likely obviate the need for the extensive diagonals included in your version of the framing ?


Image

Image

SDR
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by SDR »

I await you answer as to the means you propose for penetrating one beam with another, crossing at right angles or at 45º. This element is always of interest to me---relevant, for a Wrightian, to the matter of continuity ?---and I have put some thought into achieving that sort of crossing, at more modest scale perhaps, in wood.

I do not find this proposal convincing; it was intended perhaps for light-duty
construction such as suspended ceiling grid ?
Image

My own studies:
Image
Image
Image
Image

g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

I havent allowed for a beam to penetrate or cross over another- simply butt up to.

I allowed for the end steel fascia to be a 8" beam (channel) such that the top chord of the 3- 4 x 2 joists is continuous over and cantilevers to pick up the timber fascia. This 8" beam spans 2 bays (14ft) and cantilevers another 2 bays -
I note on the Taliesin drawing - they have a 3/8 x 8" inch ( 200 x 10mm) flinch plate in lieu of a steel beam. If a flich plate was installed then I wonder if its not stiff enough - as the deflection in the eaves is suggesting that!

I've allowed for the main steel beams to be 12 x 5" IB ( 300UB) parallel to the timber floor joists

or

Just to see how it goes, Ive added another steel beam located at the east kitchen wall

and included that in another framing option B , which also has the diagonal deleted - this sort of works as well - but I don't think inclusion of this beam is indicative of the deflection in the eaves fascia.

Imageschwartz floor framing op 2 by g dorn, on Flickr


I gather, by not having the diagonal and perpendicular joists over the entry, , then the soffit lining to the carport must then have some sort of counter battens so the boards can run parallel to the joists - as seen in the carport photo
Image

The way this photo is taken , it implies that the boards meet at 45 degrees - a 45 angle does not align with the drawn plan and where this join lines up with the brickwork at the entry pier - maybe its not 45 degrees then? so what is going on then!
G Dorn
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Tom
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by Tom »

Lot of great work here GDorn.
Wonder how the balcony hallway is supported now?
Investigations like these always raise new questions.
Thank you.

g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

trellis construction

looking at the terace trellis construction and comparing the information
Section and detail drawings shows

ImageSchwartz Section AA by g dorn, on Flickr


Imageschwartz trellis section detail by g dorn, on Flickr

this photo - looks like was taken during construction- shows the base framing - in particular it shows the offset of the beam with trellis openings
Image

this photo looks to have extra framing added to the fascia outer face - to give more of a step.


Image

like the other Usonians- looks like fascia is a critical structural member.

here is a drone like view of the Terrace trellis framing - Im not sure if there is intermediate framing between the main 12 x 2 beams - particularly in the dining area - or they just used battens to support the ceiling lining and roof decking!

ImageSchwartz trellis framing 3D by g dorn, on Flickr
G Dorn
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Tom
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by Tom »

The beam that cantilevers beyond the last brick pier of the living room I would say must be steel.
If so, it must also extend back to the second pier from the corner and stop there, allowing the trellis beam to cross.
If so, it would also have to be tied down into that pier maybe with a rod going all the way to the footing
like the Pope/Leighy carport beam.
The fascia terminating the trellis beams must be providng the counter weight to the living room clerestory wall and roof
... is that what you think is going on here too?
It's a pretty cool balancing act.

Also on page 1 of this thread in the photograph with the man cooking in the kitchen -
It looks like you can see the bottom flange of the steel beam that cantilevers out into the carport.
It's on top of the brick wall that frames the right hand side of the drawing.

SDR
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by SDR »

The beam atop the row of columns can do nothing by way of cantilever unless it is uninterrupted. I have not yet heard a satisfying answer to the question of how these intersections can be constructed---in wood, and/or in steel---so as to provide continuity to both members.

If the fascia were to be a channel, I could imagine it contributing to the structure; in wood it is little more than dead weight---though as drawn the outermost member is larger in both height and thickness, so perhaps that was the intent. Where it could fail to be continuous, due to available lengths of material, the poor little 2x4 behind it was intended to bridge the joint---at least.

The "extra framing added to the fascia outer face" is simply a generously-dimensioned flashing, added to virtually every one of these flat-roofed early Usonians. You have surely noted the detail, clearly visible on the section drawing, that Wright provided for the edge of the roof. Photos of the restored Jacobs I show the only exception to this unfortunate necessity.

S

g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

Tom wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:13 am
<snip>
Also on page 1 of this thread in the photograph with the man cooking in the kitchen -
It looks like you can see the bottom flange of the steel beam that cantilevers out into the carport.
It's on top of the brick wall that frames the right hand side of the drawing.
well spotted

You could very well be right about - if there is a beam for the carport roof at this end

or it could simply be a lintel that supports the brickwork over
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

Tom wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 7:13 am
The beam that cantilevers beyond the last brick pier of the living room I would say must be steel.
If so, it must also extend back to the second pier from the corner and stop there, allowing the trellis beam to cross.
If so, it would also have to be tied down into that pier maybe with a rod going all the way to the footing
like the Pope/Leighy carport beam.
The fascia terminating the trellis beams must be providng the counter weight to the living room clerestory wall and roof
... is that what you think is going on here too?
It's a pretty cool balancing act.
<snip>.
here is plan of how I think it might be working - but this has its issues with regards to the stiffness of the trellis over the end garden bed and the length of the fascia beam cantilever

blue lines is just for ease of viewing - - no steel indicated- (yet)

Imageschwartz trellis framing A by g dorn, on Flickr
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

and a couple of alternatives

Option B - I think is okay, I guess the beam at the end over the Usonian wall would need some tie down at the end within the wall corner

but how then is the trellis over the garden bed supported?

I suppose the beam could be a steel 150 UB (6" ) with a 150 Ub (6") crossing over it to get the perpendicular cantilever

Imageschwartz trellis framing B by g dorn, on Flickr

Option C - seems too implausable as the span is 42 ft ( 6 bays) - which surely makes it uneconomical for a measily 7ft cantilever
Imageschwartz trellis framing c by g dorn, on Flickr

there must be a different way of doing it.
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

maybe this way
option D

Imageschwartz trellis framing D by g dorn, on Flickr
G Dorn
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g.dorn
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Re: Bernard Schwartz House

Post by g.dorn »

SDR wrote:
Mon May 25, 2020 10:03 am
The beam atop the row of columns can do nothing by way of cantilever unless it is uninterrupted. <snip>

S

I dont thing there is a beam over the row of columns- the section detail suggest its a series of stepped 4 x 2's - which form up the inner part of the trellis and enclose the roof space - ie like a birdboard, and creating an outer protective layer to the main structural members

Imageschwartz trellis section detail by g dorn, on Flickr
G Dorn
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