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Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sat Dec 05, 2020 3:34 pm
by DavidC

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:13 am
by SDR

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:56 pm
by jay
Re-naming things, seems to me, to be a fine solution to dealing with troubling issues of the past.... Because all we're talking about is a symbolic gesture... If the school was tearing the building down, for example, one might suggest that simply erasing the past won't actually erase the past... But in this action, one that Ms. Whiting correctly calls a "minor step", they've used a symbolic gesture to create distance between the house, its creator, and the institution's relationship with the creator.

Perhaps it is a "re-action".... and a needed one..... Especially for a country that is hurting so profoundly from its inability to move past racism and more recently its alarming flirtation with fascism.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 2:07 pm
by Roderick Grant
Fascism, Marxism Stalinism, Socialism, Nazism, Communism ... not a nickel's worth of difference between the lot of them, all toxic as socio-political movements. But pretending that renaming or destroying connections to hated, defeated movements of the past (or reconstituted beyond recognition for the future) will accomplish anything of a positive nature is simplistic. The only thing wrong with George Santayana's one-liner is that it is a glib one-liner; he should have expanded on it. History is complex; cancel culture is simple-minded. It is the Philip Johnson House, and always will be.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Fri Dec 11, 2020 4:57 pm
by jay
The irony, Roderick, is that we are saying basically the same thing, but from different viewpoints. We agree this is mostly an empty gesture, with no effective fulfillment, and that it will indeed always "be" the Philip Johnson House. And Ms. Whiting essentially says this as well.... One could sum this act up as being little more than an institutional asterisk on Philip Johnson... Therefore, to say Cancel-Culture does not accomplish some grand act is precisely the point. History is still complex, and nobody is erasing it. This nearly-empty symbolic gesture still lets the work remain, lets the offender's words remain his own, and offers no substantial revision of history.

If anyone finds that offensive, then I suspect what we're really talking about is that the complainer simply shares sympathies with the person 'being canceled'.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 11:30 am
by Roderick Grant
Jay. don't edit my comments.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:53 pm
by jay
What have I misinterpreted?
Also, your comments suggest you now dislike fascism.... Is that so?
Pardon my surprise but you're appearing to defend the fascist in this thread, not to mention the many comments you've made over the years in support of contemporary American fascism.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2020 2:23 pm
by SDR
Wait for it . . .

Image

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 1:17 pm
by Roderick Grant
Jay, your claim that Trump is a Fascist is ridiculous. As I pointed out, there are no differences between the various "isms," so for Bernie Sanders, for instance, to admit he is a Socialist, is tantamount to his admitting he is a Fascist as well. But Trump is no Fascist nor Socialist.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:48 pm
by Tim
A complete enough history of Fascism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

In short, it started as a defense against communism. It met communism's violent, murderous brutality blow by blow.

Since the 1950s, it has been a "marketing" term of convenience, easily assigned to ones "political enemies".

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 2:53 pm
by jay
Trump is the definition of fascism. His attempt to overthrow the election is purely fascist conduct... But for someone to support such clear authoritarian conduct, it's no surprise that the same person would deny the proper "label" of that conduct.

It's like when the racist says "I'm not a racist, but......"

And not that I'd expect to change your views but for other readers who want clarification between what conservative-ideology is and what fascism is, let Steve Schmidt (the GOP operative) explain it in a minute:
https://youtu.be/ufFHqzp33Y4?t=19

Or as Ernest Hemingway wrote in For Whom the Bells Toll:
'But are there not many fascists in your country?'
'There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes.'

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:08 pm
by Tim
:roll:

An actual overthrowing: https://www.history.com/this-day-in-his ... revolution

What is currently happening: Trump's team used the legal system to file lawsuits because they felt there was election fraud. When the courts overruled him, he took to Twitter to throw a tantrum. Then on January 20, 2021, Vice President Biden was sworn into office, becoming President Biden. Trump flew down to Florida to play golf, and Tweeted some more.

If this last part doesn't happen, I'll have to come back to this post, apologize, and agree with you.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 3:29 pm
by jay
Tim,
I said Trump "attempted" to overthrow the election. Luckily the American system, battered as it is, did not let it happen. But Trump has done everything possible to subvert the democratic process, which by definition makes him a fascist, and engaging in fascist tactics.
We survived this attempt. But don't be fooled simply because the fascist failed.

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2020 5:26 pm
by jay
The question of fascism as historic or contemporary, as pure propaganda or active violence, etc, is besides the point... It is a matter of democratic rule versus authoritarian rule... Whether a fascist regime, leader, or institution is successful or not successful, at any given moment of time, is also besides the point....

https://www.npr.org/2020/11/21/93763817 ... on-results

Re: Article: Cancel Culture pays a visit to Philip Johnson

Posted: Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:34 pm
by peterm
“Fascism, Marxism Stalinism, Socialism, Nazism, Communism ... not a nickel's worth of difference between the lot of them, all toxic as socio-political movements.” -R. Grant

I think you forgot feminism? And why not throw liberal democracy into the dumpster of isms while you’re at it?

This coming from a person who has berated Black Lives Matter, accused George Soros of funding terrorism, thinks Antifa (anti fascism) is the equivalent of the Proud Boys and the KKK, and defended Donald Trump at every step for the last five years, is now indirectly proclaiming that there is “not a nickel’s worth of difference” between Adolf Hitler and Bernie Sanders.

Anyone who thinks Wright would have defended the likes of Donald Trump and his cronies for even one second has their head in the sand, or is rewriting history.

I realize we are discouraged from discussing political ideas, but this statement above can’t stand without being corrected. It is like someone naively insisting there’s no difference between twelve tone serialism, hip hop, bebop and country and western, simply because they are all musical styles. Of course, there are differences. And they are massive differences!

(Btw- There is no ism called “Marxism Stalinism”. They are separate and distinctly at odds with each other.)

Jay- thank you for this:

“ Or as Ernest Hemingway wrote in For Whom the Bells Toll:
'But are there not many fascists in your country?'
'There are many who do not know they are fascists but will find it out when the time comes.' “