Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

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M Pipher
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by M Pipher »

Stephen Cowdery I can tell you the only agenda I have is Mr. Wright and his life's work. I am only looking to help the sites and others that feel the same as me about the amazing work he accomplished. The only reason I do not want to have an open forum is I have too many drawings etc to make public for all.
Michael P

SDR
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by SDR »

I imagine sociologists and psychologists have identified and named the several issues related to group interaction, which I can only speak of as a layman. There must be a sort of balance achieved in successful social interaction whereby dissent is tolerated and even welcomed, as long as it doesn't threaten the harmony and mutual support which consent and agreement provide to the group ?

One way to minimize dissent is to limit the group to those who agree to a "prior consent" of sorts: thus the common prohibitions of certain topics---politics, religion, and s e x, most commonly---at the dinner table, on the airwaves, and on fora like this one. Another less draconian means is to admit all and to police misbehavior as it arises. The guarantee of free speech granted by democratic governments unfortunately can be interpreted to mean that even hate speech and lies are permitted---societal ills from which the group is ill-equipped to defend itself, as we see all around us today.

S

SDR
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by SDR »

As to drawings, I can report that, since I began posting copyrighted material here, fourteen years ago, I have heard not one word from any holders of copyright regarding my (accurately credited) use of such material. Early on I gave Professor Storrer the opportunity to object to my posting of his uniquely valuable Wright floor plans, his photographs and texts as found in the Frank Lloyd Wright Companion of 1993 and occasionally the earlier The Architecture of Frank Lloyd Wright, a complete catalog. I have heard nothing from him in this regard, nor from any publisher or photographer whose work I post here, often but not always correctly credited.

I am left to assume that the various parties, the Frank Lloyd Wright Foundation and its successor owners of Wright materials, and Mr Storrer, find the display of such previously published materials to be harmless to them, if not perhaps helpful in the understanding and appreciation of the work.

S

M Pipher
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by M Pipher »

SREcklund First and foremost thank you for the kind words, second I consider Stan a personal friend & Wright family. The Wright Attitude has a lot of great people that are also friends and family. Stan has been nothing but supportive of me from day one of joining the group and for that I thank him. yes I left because of one person that almost had me walk away from 24 active years in the Wright world and 38 years of drawing Wright. I value everyone's friendship and will always cherish it. Maybe it is truly best for me to be in the shadows the way I have always been. Sometimes having an artist heart is not a good thing.
Michael P

SREcklund
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by SREcklund »

M Pipher wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 1:34 pm
Maybe it is truly best for me to be in the shadows the way I have always been. Sometimes having an artist heart is not a good thing.
I understand. I do still hope there will come a day when you can rejoin us, for your, mine, and the group's benefit. Even if you don't, I have some projects for the WA that I'd like to discuss with you.
Docent, Hollyhock House - Hollywood, CA
Humble student of the Master

"Youth is a circumstance you can't do anything about. The trick is to grow up without getting old." - Frank Lloyd Wright

SREcklund
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by SREcklund »

SDR wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:55 am
"Post only those photos, drawings, renderings, etc you personally took or have permission from the creator to use."

I was surprised to find this as the second item in the Group Rules at the facebook Wright Attitude public page. Of course this would be a prudent move from a legal perspective. I wonder, however, how the study of an architect can proceed without documention of his intent as expressed in the drawings which, of necessity, preceded construction of the buildings.

Have any members received permission to display Taliesin drawings ? Have members made their own copies of Wright drawings ? Has W A Storrer posted his plan drawings of the built Wright canon ?
While I did make the rule inclusive of different media types so that it would be easily enforced if needed, it is directed primarily at photographs. Between myself, Mark Hertzberg, Andrew Pielage and others, we are blessed to have a number of prominent Wright photographers as members. Sadly, posters will sometimes grab a picture they found on some Google search and post it in the group, not realizing (or perhaps not caring) that the creator of said image was also a member. Most creators believe strongly in maintaining their intellectual property rights, and this rule supports that belief.

As for the renderings and drawings that have been copied and recopied and posted all over the internet, a simple "Copyright FLW Foundation" or the longer statement attributing to the Avery Library and MoMA would certainly cover your usage.
SDR wrote:
Thu Nov 19, 2020 10:55 am
I am frankly offended by the requirement, as a part of re-establishment of an account, that the user find three facebook users to attest to his fitness to be admitted. Honestly . . .!
They really do that? Wow ... that is a bit draconian ...
Docent, Hollyhock House - Hollywood, CA
Humble student of the Master

"Youth is a circumstance you can't do anything about. The trick is to grow up without getting old." - Frank Lloyd Wright

M Pipher
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Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by M Pipher »

SREcklund I think you know me well enough to know I would always help for the greater good of Mr. Wright and to help my Wright Family.
Michael

M Pipher
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by M Pipher »

SDR I can only say this as an artist that shares his work, I was happy to see that rule, as most that know me I am happy to help and lend a drawing when asked. I do not appreciate people just taking with out asking. Andrew, Mark Stan are the best Wright photographers I know and their work should be respected and protected. As far as Mr. Storrer I have seen him bring up to use of his images more than a few time without his consent.
M Pipher

JimM
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by JimM »

Is Don Henley a member? Things have gotten a little ridiculous; I'm content having found ways to satiate my 55 year interest in Wright without participating in such drama. No doubt it's a wonderful endeavor, but Facebook is an immediate deal killer.

SDR
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by SDR »

Stan, maybe it was "attest to his being an actual human." I think there was an alternate protocol, something to do with a notary---or am I confusing that with an Advanced Healthcare Directive . . .? (smiley here; can't stand the graphic itself)

S

Stephen Cowdery
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by Stephen Cowdery »

“No doubt it's a wonderful endeavor, but Facebook is an immediate deal killer.”

This is a deal killer for me as well.

Mark Hertzberg
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by Mark Hertzberg »

Stephen writes that he is bothered by: ""Post only those photos, drawings, renderings, etc you personally took or have permission from the creator to use." I intended the following even before I saw Stan Ecklund's welcome explanation...My photographer (and I appreciate the compliments on here) is copyright, as is any intellectual property, at the moment of creation. I have seen my work used without my permission or any credit to me on various Wright sites. I appreciate that Stan has this rule to protect my photography, Andrew's, and his...indeed anybody's creative work. If that is a turn-off, so be it, that is your decision. I can't get to the bottom of FB problems, but perhaps it would work if you created a new account with a slightly different user name.

There was drama - some of it needless - which led to the discussion at hand. But those of you thinking of joining Wright Attitude or looking at it should not throw out the baby with the bathwater. There is much value in the site which Stan Ecklund has created.

Moreover, I have found that this forum is more prone to people's judgements and, sometimes, insults than Wright Attitude is. No site can be 100% perfect every time for everyone.
Mark Hertzberg

Stephen Cowdery
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by Stephen Cowdery »

“Stephen writes that he is bothered by: "

No, not me, that was SDR.

I did look at the Wright Facebook page (through someone else's FB account) and was not impressed.
I'll stick with Wright Chat.

M Pipher
Posts: 10
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2020 5:01 pm

Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by M Pipher »

Mark Hertzberg You are correct no site / group will be 100% perfect. Maybe my time has run it's course, I am not a steward or an author not even a photographer. I am just a guy that draws nothing more or less so I am easily replaceable. As I said to Stan maybe it is truly best for me to be in the shadows the way I have always been.
Michael P.

SDR
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Re: Should there be a new social media closed group for Wright?

Post by SDR »

Maybe---but I'd be interested to see what you've been drawing, all this time. Send me a note . . .

S

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