Roofing/insulation for apprentice house

To control SPAM, you must now be a registered user to post to this Message Board.

EFFECTIVE 14 Nov. 2012 PRIVATE MESSAGING HAS BEEN RE-ENABLED. IF YOU RECEIVE A SUSPICIOUS DO NOT CLICK ON ANY LINKS AND PLEASE REPORT TO THE ADMINISTRATOR FOR FURTHER INVESTIGATION.

This is the Frank Lloyd Wright Building Conservancy's Message Board. Wright enthusiasts can post questions and comments, and other people visiting the site can respond.

You agree not to post any abusive, obscene, vulgar, slanderous, hateful, threatening, *-oriented or any other material that may violate any applicable laws. Doing so may lead to you being immediately and permanently banned (and your service provider being informed). The IP address of all posts is recorded to aid in enforcing these conditions. You agree that the webmaster, administrator and moderators of this forum have the right to remove, edit, move or close any topic at any time they see fit.
Tom
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:53 pm
Location: Black Mountain, NC

Post by Tom »

Anyway to work this purely from the interior?

Tom
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2011 7:53 pm
Location: Black Mountain, NC

Post by Tom »

( by the way, why is stacking insulation on the exterior a bad idea?)

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

SDR wrote:I was toying with the idea that the 3" T&G decking was the interior ceiling surface. Would that construction provide spans like those shown in these realtor photos ?

http://www.wowhaus.co.uk/2013/10/21/on- ... higan-usa/

Further inspection of the construction set would clear up the question. I'm scratching my head.

SDR
I too have wondered the same thing, but there are butt joints in the middle of the spans which would lead me to believe that's not the case? I also removed some drywall and uncovered the area where the roof meets the long low front window. It appears the cedar T&G is less than 1" thick.

Let me try and describe the structure. Near the top of the ceiling there are two long (one 54' and one 44') beams inside drywall which run the length of the house. The longer beam supports the front side roof and the shorter supports the rear side roof. These are tied together by a series of 8 small trusses that are in drywall. The front roof extends from the longer beam all the way down to about 3' from the ground (first floor is 4' below grade). There is another beam 4' from the lower edge of the roof which also runs the length of the house. Between the upper and lower beams it is clear span of cedar planks which is about 20'. The rear structure is similar, there's just less roof.

Something I just realized, there are two hanging lights from the cedar T&G. What void is that electrical running in?

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

These are the last two pictures I have which show anything useful.

Image

Image

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

Tom wrote:Anyway to work this purely from the interior?
No way to do that.

SDR
Posts: 18795
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by SDR »

Thanks. Section B has a note: "Line of roof support 1 - 2"x 8" on ea. side of rafter & face nail." What rafter ?

Section A has a similar note, minus the spec detail. The opposite side of the house apparently has a partition supporting the mid-span of the roof. The living-room ceiling, however, appears to be unsupported top to bottom. Plan drawings showing where the sections were taken would be useful in interpreting this construction.

In any event, the clean exterior detail at the wall/roof connection will have to be disturbed to add thickness to the roof. I can picture a fascia board in plane with the wall, carried out consistently, as a solution that would not be questioned by the casual observer. A narrower fascia would have to be added at the end walls as well, naturally, continuing the line of the window-wall fascia.

SDR
Last edited by SDR on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

SDR wrote:Thanks. Section B has a note: "Line of roof support 1 - 2"x 8" on ea. side of rafter & face nail." What rafter ?

Section A has a similar note, minus the spec detail. The opposite side of the house apparently has a partition supporting the mid-span of the roof. The living-room ceiling, however, seems to be unsupported top to bottom.

Plan drawings showing where the sections were taken would be the final step in deciphering this construction. In any event, the clean exterior detail at the wall/roof connection will have to be disturbed to add thickness to the roof. I can picture a fascia board in plane with the wall, carried out consistently, as a solution that would not be questioned by the casual observer. A narrower fascia would have to be added at the end walls as well, naturally.

SDR
Here's a couple pictures of the rafters that run along the upstairs hallway. One taken from the first floor and one from the second.

Image

Image

SDR
Posts: 18795
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by SDR »

. . .
Last edited by SDR on Fri Dec 29, 2017 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Roderick Grant
Posts: 9873
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am

Post by Roderick Grant »

The architect of this house, Larry Brink, was a good friend of mine, gone too soon. This house is a wonderful piece of work, inside and out, and appeared on WC some years ago.

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

SDR wrote:Hmm. I wonder how wide the 3" decking boards are. A c. 20' span, at 12 in 12 pitch, is apparently possible in snow country, the pitch being considered self-clearing ?

SDR
The finished T&G is 5.5" wide, if that is indeed the 3" thick decking. I still have a hard time believing that because of the mid span butt joints.

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

Roderick Grant wrote:The architect of this house, Larry Brink, was a good friend of mine, gone too soon. This house is a wonderful piece of work, inside and out, and appeared on WC some years ago.
That was when I purchased it, 4 years ago this month. Unfortunately the house was not treated well after Larry. I heard it was once a student rental and also left vacant for some time. I've been working on it for those 4 years straight, little by little, bringing it back closer to what it once was.

SDR
Posts: 18795
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by SDR »

Would you go so far as to uncover the dining-room floor recess ? I don't know how deep it is. One riser ?

Was the house ever published ? It seems a candidate for an Architectural Record "Houses of the Year" annual . . .


You said you found 3/4" thick cedar boards, so that would be the ceiling finish. The decking might be 3x8 or something.


SDR

Roderick Grant
Posts: 9873
Joined: Wed Mar 29, 2006 7:48 am

Post by Roderick Grant »

Larry, who served as president of Taliesin Fellows, was like so many FLW apprentices: too modest by half. Jim DeLong and I would gladly have published his work in the Journal, but he never cooperated. Just like Aaron Green.

vortrex
Posts: 68
Joined: Tue Dec 24, 2013 12:03 pm
Location: Ann Arbor, MI

Post by vortrex »

SDR wrote:Would you go so far as to uncover the dining-room floor recess ? I don't know how deep it is. One riser ?

Was the house ever published ? It seems a candidate for an Architectural Record "Houses of the Year" annual . . .


You said you found 3/4" thick cedar boards, so that would be the ceiling finish. The decking might be 3x8 or something.


SDR
Help me understand which floor you are talking about. The dining room floor is concrete slab with brick around the perimeter. All the wood flooring you see in the realtor photos has been removed.

I don't think the house was ever published, at least not in the past 20 years. It seems the past 3 most recent owners weren't too interested in maintaining the house or trying to keep the original style.

It's hard to tell what I'm seeing because I can only get a slight glimpse but it doesn't appear to be anywhere near 3" thick. Probably what needs to be done is to remove a section of roofing and dig into it when spring comes. The roof is due for replacement anyway.

SDR
Posts: 18795
Joined: Sat Jun 17, 2006 11:33 pm
Location: San Francisco

Post by SDR »

Well, the drawings call for a 3" T&G deck and you found something thinner, which I'm guessing is the cedar ceiling nailed to the underside of the deck. It will be interesting to find out what's there, when the time comes.

I recalled from the previous discussion that the wood floor in the dining room filled in the original condition, which I remembered as a recess. There's concrete there ? Is it recessed at all -- or did the wood floor sit atop the finished floor plane ? I see the guest room has an exposed concrete floor.

Publication I'm thinking of would have occurred when the house was new . . .

SDR

Post Reply